(no subject)
Oct. 14th, 2003 11:31 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rusty_haloI got woken a half hour early today because of jackhammers. Jackhammers! Right outside my building. I was thinking (as I held the pillow uselessly over my ears) that if I went outside and killed the construction workers, I could probably get off on temporary insanity. On account of being driven insane by jackhammers at eight in the morning.
That was a crappy way to wake up.
London Hellmouth got recommended on BBF. Yay! If you had trouble getting to it yesterday, it should be working fine now, so check it out. Wonderful story.
Also, Carolyn Claire's Thirst completely kicks ass as well. Spike/Xander, post-Gift, very creepy and sexy. She does a really wonderful job of creating a place and an atmosphere and a mood ... you really have to read it to get what I mean.
I have so much wonderful stuff to archive right now; did I mention how glad I am that Spike's on Angel? But I'm spacing it out, because if I archive everything at once, some stories will slip through unnoticed. So ... going slow. (If you're waiting for me to archive something, that's why it might take a little while.) I wonder if I archived too many long stories at once in the last few days ... is it too much to read? (For those who usually read a lot of what I archive.) Just curious if anyone has an opinion. I worry about these things.
Also,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
deborahmm has some interesting thoughts here on the kink thing, inspired by posts by eliade and thebratqueen. I don't entirely agree with deborahmm's view of Spike (though I do agree with a lot of what she said). Her post is interesting because I've been thinking about a lot of the same things lately, too. eliade and thebratqueen have both been posting very wonderful stories recently that don't turn me on at all, because they both hit what is, basically, my anti-kink. (Has nothing to do with the quality of their writing or anything like that, so no offense intended.) But basically, my anti-kink (something I can't enjoy no matter how well it's written) is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them. Like the idea of Spike (or Wesley) as whoever's "pet" just creeps me out completely, regardless of whether the "pet owner" is affectionate or cruel.
What's interesting to me is that there's such a fine line between kink and anti-kink for me. Because I totally think Spike is love's bitch, he needs his lover to to be the powerful one in the relationship (which was very true of Dru and Buffy; without that, he'll have no respect for them, as with Harmony). But Spike's also got a very strong sense of self (a lot of insecurity, but still a strong sense of self). When he wants something, he's not going to roll over and give it up. He'll always struggle, and he'll never let himself be totally dominated. He'll be in the submissive role because he likes it and needs it, but it's never total. (Like, even when he's totally in love with Dru and does her bidding most of the time, when he feels that she's lingering too much over Angel, he'll go behind her back and make a deal with the Slayer.)
So, I guess one way to explain the difference is, say there's a Spike/Angel story where the point is that Spike breaks and totally gives in to Angel. That's squicky. But say there's a story where Angel is still the powerful one, but Spike struggles and never stops snarking and demanding. He never totally gives in or accepts the situation. That's good. Or, something similar: Intervention totally hits a kink in a similar way. It's not romantic, but I just love how, even when he's being horribly tortured, Spike's making fun of Glory's hair and her big ass and completely refusing to give in at all. Whereas if he gave up and broke, it would just be sad and depressing.
Anyway, just some vague ideas. I wouldn't usually talk about kinks or any of that, because I'm horribly repressed. (Yes, I read gay vampire porn regularly and still manage to be horribly repressed. Not quite sure how that works.) But it's an interesting topic anddeborahmm has a view similar to mine, so I figured I'd attempt to articulate my thoughts. Though my views may change later as this is probably the first time I've made any attempt to articulate them at all.
That was a crappy way to wake up.
London Hellmouth got recommended on BBF. Yay! If you had trouble getting to it yesterday, it should be working fine now, so check it out. Wonderful story.
Also, Carolyn Claire's Thirst completely kicks ass as well. Spike/Xander, post-Gift, very creepy and sexy. She does a really wonderful job of creating a place and an atmosphere and a mood ... you really have to read it to get what I mean.
I have so much wonderful stuff to archive right now; did I mention how glad I am that Spike's on Angel? But I'm spacing it out, because if I archive everything at once, some stories will slip through unnoticed. So ... going slow. (If you're waiting for me to archive something, that's why it might take a little while.) I wonder if I archived too many long stories at once in the last few days ... is it too much to read? (For those who usually read a lot of what I archive.) Just curious if anyone has an opinion. I worry about these things.
Also,
deborahmm has some interesting thoughts here on the kink thing, inspired by posts by eliade and thebratqueen. I don't entirely agree with deborahmm's view of Spike (though I do agree with a lot of what she said). Her post is interesting because I've been thinking about a lot of the same things lately, too. eliade and thebratqueen have both been posting very wonderful stories recently that don't turn me on at all, because they both hit what is, basically, my anti-kink. (Has nothing to do with the quality of their writing or anything like that, so no offense intended.) But basically, my anti-kink (something I can't enjoy no matter how well it's written) is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them. Like the idea of Spike (or Wesley) as whoever's "pet" just creeps me out completely, regardless of whether the "pet owner" is affectionate or cruel.What's interesting to me is that there's such a fine line between kink and anti-kink for me. Because I totally think Spike is love's bitch, he needs his lover to to be the powerful one in the relationship (which was very true of Dru and Buffy; without that, he'll have no respect for them, as with Harmony). But Spike's also got a very strong sense of self (a lot of insecurity, but still a strong sense of self). When he wants something, he's not going to roll over and give it up. He'll always struggle, and he'll never let himself be totally dominated. He'll be in the submissive role because he likes it and needs it, but it's never total. (Like, even when he's totally in love with Dru and does her bidding most of the time, when he feels that she's lingering too much over Angel, he'll go behind her back and make a deal with the Slayer.)
So, I guess one way to explain the difference is, say there's a Spike/Angel story where the point is that Spike breaks and totally gives in to Angel. That's squicky. But say there's a story where Angel is still the powerful one, but Spike struggles and never stops snarking and demanding. He never totally gives in or accepts the situation. That's good. Or, something similar: Intervention totally hits a kink in a similar way. It's not romantic, but I just love how, even when he's being horribly tortured, Spike's making fun of Glory's hair and her big ass and completely refusing to give in at all. Whereas if he gave up and broke, it would just be sad and depressing.
Anyway, just some vague ideas. I wouldn't usually talk about kinks or any of that, because I'm horribly repressed. (Yes, I read gay vampire porn regularly and still manage to be horribly repressed. Not quite sure how that works.) But it's an interesting topic and
deborahmm has a view similar to mine, so I figured I'd attempt to articulate my thoughts. Though my views may change later as this is probably the first time I've made any attempt to articulate them at all.
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(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-14 03:54 pm (UTC)(Has nothing to do with the quality of their writing or anything like that, so no offense intended.) But basically, my anti-kink (something I can't enjoy no matter how well it's written) is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them. Like the idea of Spike (or Wesley) as whoever's "pet" just creeps me out completely, regardless of whether the "pet owner" is affectionate or cruel.
Yes! Absolutely-- one of the few things I find squicky.
What's interesting to me is that there's such a fine line between kink and anti-kink for me. Because I totally think Spike is love's bitch, he needs his lover to to be the powerful one in the relationship (which was very true of Dru and Buffy; without that, he'll have no respect for them, as with Harmony). But Spike's also got a very strong sense of self (a lot of insecurity, but still a strong sense of self). When he wants something, he's not going to roll over and give it up. He'll always struggle, and he'll never let himself be totally dominated. He'll be in the submissive role because he likes it and needs it, but it's never total. (Like, even when he's totally in love with Dru and does her bidding most of the time, when he feels that she's lingering too much over Angel, he'll go behind her back and make a deal with the Slayer.)
So very true. Just another fascinating facet of the Spike mosaic, this contradictory nature. Because *within* this dynamic, he will, occasionally, strive to dominate-- see Buffy in Dead Things (the balcony scene) or Dru in Lover's Walk ("I'll torture her until she comes back to me.")-- and/or be the protector-- see Dru in general, especially after the events in Prague, Buffy even back in Fool for Love, the beginning of Season Six, and the end of Season Seven, and, of course, Dawn in Season Five/Six.
Or, something similar: Intervention totally hits a kink in a similar way. It's not romantic, but I just love how, even when he's being horribly tortured, Spike's making fun of Glory's hair and her big ass and completely refusing to give in at all. Whereas if he gave up and broke, it would just be sad and depressing.
No kidding. For all my kinks, I actually abhor extreme violence and pain-- it's part and parcel of a vampire show, I know, and I don't mind all kinds of mental anguish and deep angst...but give me physical torture, and I just feel ill. Still, I love this episode: as you point out, Spike's behaviour in Intervention can counter this and give the storyline a different spin-- make it about courage and a stubborn sense of self instead of resignation and submission...
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-14 04:33 pm (UTC)I don't think he's ever comfortable with it, though, and I don't think it's his first choice. The examples you cite both came after he'd tried quite a few other options and found them unsuccessful, and so was trying to please the woman based on what he guessed she'd like/find effective. Like, begging and pleading for Dru to come back to him didn't work, so he finally decided to show her that he was still "evil enough" and to emulate Angel, the dominant one, who Dru really wanted. But he was shaping himself to please her, torturing her because it's what she wanted. Same with the Dead Things balcony scene: he'd tried sitting with her quietly, he'd tried listening and being supportive, he'd tried to get her to open up, he'd tried "we have to talk," he'd tried "if I can't have all of you, I'd rather--," etc. So he tried turning the tables, being dominant as Dru used to want, and as Buffy was treating him. But it wasn't his first choice, and it wasn't all that natural--it didn't really fit with his behavior before or after.
You're right about the protector thing, though. He protects, but not in a dominating way. He doesn't try to make their choices for them, like Angel would, "for her own good." He's more likely to just listen and be there and do whatever she tells him to do, rather than telling her what to do.
make it about courage and a stubborn sense of self instead of resignation and submission
Yes, exactly. I don't know a thing about torture in RL and I really don't want to know. But I can appreciate it fic if it's used as you describe, like in Intervention.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-14 05:04 pm (UTC)No, definitely not his first choice; then again, it's definitely something he sees as a possible approach to a relationship. That's probably the bottom (Heh. She said bottom!) of it: being dominant isn't an unfamiliar idea (if only after having witnessed it for so long, re: Angelus), however, it's an *instrument*, not the underlying desire itself.
The examples you cite both came after he'd tried quite a few other options and found them unsuccessful, and so was trying to please the woman based on what he guessed she'd like/find effective. Like, begging and pleading for Dru to come back to him didn't work, so he finally decided to show her that he was still "evil enough" and to emulate Angel, the dominant one, who Dru really wanted.
Yes, I agree.
But he was shaping himself to please her, torturing her because it's what she wanted. Same with the Dead Things balcony scene: he'd tried sitting with her quietly, he'd tried listening and being supportive, he'd tried to get her to open up, he'd tried "we have to talk," he'd tried "if I can't have all of you, I'd rather--," etc. So he tried turning the tables, being dominant as Dru used to want, and as Buffy was treating him. But it wasn't his first choice, and it wasn't all that natural--it didn't really fit with his behavior before or after.
You're absolutely right, but to me, pressure and psychological violence are viable options to Spike-- or were, pre-soul, at least--, i.e. he didn't have to torture himself to do it as he could not see the ethical/moral wrong of such a behaviour (notwithstanding his love and more caring, tender side)...but of course, he was neither comfortable with nor very good at it.