Soul Purpose

[rusty_halo]

Yes, Mr. Fury, I get it. I give in now. Spike is a nasty sexist pig who objectifies women, and I'm just a delusional hormone-driven fool for ever liking him in the first place. I'll go burn my Spike memorabilia in effigy now. Thank you so much for enlightening me.

*sigh*

*misses Jane Espenson*

*is completely over this show and this character*

Well, except the Spike/Lindsey hoyay was nice.

Back before Spike was with Buffy, the writers didn't feel the need to insert some little "Look! Spike objectifies women! Spike's a bad boy! Spike's a creep!" thing into every single episode. Now? His relationship with Buffy is *over*, but it's like Fury's still trying to hammer it into every single Spike fan's head that they were *wrong*, that Spuffy was *wrong*, that Spike is *wrong*.

Whatever. My Spike died in "Grave," and Fury's retcons are not going to ruin my love for that character. This Spike? Isn't the same guy--he's been completely ruined by poor writing, inconsistent characterization, conflicting writers' agendas, poor acting ... the list goes on. I really couldn't care less about him at this point.

This episode had some nice hints that they might explore the complexity of reality, the grey areas of life, the idea that everything doesn't always come down to black and white in the end. Except I saw BtVS season six, so I already know they'll botch it. I'm not going to waste my time and effort investing in a story that I've already seen ME ruin once.

Comments

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

It's the oogling women in the strip club, the way he called that woman a "cow"--each on its own might not matter, but Fury puts these little things into every episode:

The way Spike treats Harmony as an sexual object and completely ignores her feelings. The way he knocks her out and doesn't even bother checking to see if she's okay. All the lines about how every bit of good Spike did was to get into Buffy's pants (in this episode, in "Destiny"--over and over, anywhere that Fury can squeeze it in. 'Cause I'm sure, y'know, when Spike was letting Glory dig her finger into his chest in "Intervention," with no expectation of being rescued, all he was really thinking about was getting into the pants of a Buffy who, to his knowledge, would never even know about his resistance even if he did survive.) The way Spike speaks possessively toward Buffy, so that they can make Angel look as if he respected her as a person while Spike just wanted to possess her, completely ignoring how it was Angel's patriarchal condescending decision to leave her in the first place. (For example: Spike: "You can't keep her from me!" Angel: "She's not mine to keep... or yours." Yes, now Angel is the mature one when it comes to respecting Buffy's choices. Just forget the whole "leaving her for her own good" thing.)

I like truth-teller Spike and I like bad-boy Spike, but there's a line between that and misogynist Spike. Fury makes sure to push a little farther across that line every episode.

In the past, we had good arguments about why Spike wasn't a misogynist, that he respected and valued women, treated them as equals, trusted them to make their own decisions (Harmony being the exception driven by his anger at women after being left by Drusilla, not the rule)--so much early S/B fic is based on contrasting this with Angel and Riley's possessive attitude toward Buffy.

Now, we don't really have that argument anymore. We used to, IMO, but since Fury controls canon, he's basically stacking the deck against us. If it was fic, I'd call it anti-Spike agenda fic and stop reading it. Without Jane Espenson to balance it out, Fury has free run to ruin Spike's character however he wants. He's been insisting for years that Spike's a misogynist, and now he's got his chance to prove it.

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

It's the oogling women in the strip club

Why is that objectifying? ::does not get what's wrong with appreciating sexual displays::

The way Spike treats Harmony as an sexual object and completely ignores her feelings. The way he knocks her out and doesn't even bother checking to see if she's okay.

I look on Spike's interaction with Harmony as being indicative of his bias against folks less intelligent than himself. His 'working class' crap aside, Spike's a snob. A different kind of snob than Angel, but a snob, still.

Spike: "You can't keep her from me!" Angel: "She's not mine to keep... or yours."

That was just Angel being pissy.

In the past, we had good arguments about why Spike wasn't a misogynist, that he respected and valued women, treated them as equals

I still see that. Look at how Spike interacted with Fred, or with Eve. But to whom he perceives as stupid? He's an ass. That's pretty consistent.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Eh, I disagree. The Spike of AtS S5 is, IMO, a misogynist. Lucky for me, he's not my Spike anyway.

[zyrya]

His 'working class' crap aside, Spike's a snob.

This makes perfect sense. Of course bourgeois Victorian William would have class issues, despite slumming it as Spike for the last century or so.

[rahirah]

I would point out in Spike's defense that once the clue-by-four penetrated in 5.9, he went out of his way to listen to Harm's troubles, and more than that, sit down with her and cheer her up. Spike may think she's a twit, and be inconsiderate of her feelings. But that really isn't the action of someone who objectifies her.

[rahirah]

Actually, it looked to me as if the only thing Spike was ogling with any real interest was his drink. That was a guy glumly going through the motions of a night on the town if ever I saw one.