rusty_halo | Since I haven't gotten my rant on in quite a while: Doctor Who fandom memes that piss me off

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Since I haven't gotten my rant on in quite a while: Doctor Who fandom memes that piss me off

I hate getting into arguments, but Doctor Who fandom is driving me fucking insane. So I'm going to rant here on my own journal, where no one has to see it if they don't want to.

Doctor Who fandom memes, and why they piss me off.

The Doctor was horribly mean to poor Harriet Jones.

Harriet Jones shot a retreating enemy in the back. She annihilated an entire society, including those who hadn't been fighting. Can you imagine if this was common practice? War would never end until one side had been completely destroyed; no one would ever surrender because they'd know they'd just get killed anyway.

Sure, it's easy for a human audience to shrug it off and say, "Well, they were just aliens," but the Doctor isn't human. We're all aliens to him and he saw one alien species behaving badly to another, and he did what he always does: put a stop to it. That's who the Doctor is, someone who sees injustice and acts to end it.

I like and sympathize with Harriet Jones, but she did something wrong, and she paid the price.

If you want to complain that the Doctor has no right to go interfering in alien societies, well, go ahead, but I don't see why you even watch the show, because all the Doctor does is interfere in alien societies.

People also like to complain that the Master's election as Prime Minister was a direct result of the Doctor bringing down Harriet Jones. It's a nice irony, but come on. If the Doctor could bring Jones down with six words, you really think the Master couldn't with fifteen satellites?

The Doctor and Rose deserved to be torn apart in "Doomsday" because of their callous behavior in previous episodes.

Oh, honestly. They're in love, they've been through harrowing events and come out stronger, they're traveling around the universe having adventures, and they're giddy and happy to be together. And, being that one of them is the Doctor, they run into trouble. What do they do?

A) Ignore the trouble and go off somewhere else to have more giddy fun.
B) Fix the trouble, help whoever they can, and continue to enjoy themselves while they do it.
C) Realize that the universe is a terrible awful place, and mope around being miserable for an entire season.

A) would be the callous response that a lot of fandom seems to think they did. B) would be the simultaneously compassionate and fun response they actually chose. C) would be the extremely depressing response that a lot of fandom wishes they'd chosen.

I have no problem with the Doctor and Rose being happy together and refusing to hide it. They don't have to help anyone, but they choose to. When someone saves your life, are you going to complain that they're not taking the situation seriously enough, or are you just going to be fucking glad that someone saved your life?

Seriously. They deserve all the fun they can get. The Doctor has saved the universe more times that I can count, and Rose did her own heart-of-the-TARDIS-absorbing universe-saving thing very recently too. This is the first happiness the Doctor's felt since he lost Gallifrey, and I can't believe there are bitter fans begrudging it because... what? They don't like the 'ship? They want everyone to be grim and miserable all the time? They've got some kind of Puritan idea that happiness must be punished?

As for "They brought about their own destruction," please. Queen Victoria brought about their destruction by being close-minded and afraid of anything beyond her own understanding. Torchwood brought about their destruction by being stupid and power hungry. The Doctor and Rose didn't do anything wrong. If they hadn't been there, Victoria would have been bitten and Britain would be ruled by werewolves. (LOL.) Instead, the Doctor and Rose showed up and saved the country, and what did they get? Banished. Torchwood resulted, and Torchwood tore them apart, which is tragic, and ironic, but it's certainly not their fault.

The Doctor brought up Rose constantly throughout season three.

He really didn't. He brought up Rose two times at the very beginning of the season, when he was still reeling from having lost her. Once in "Smith and Jones" and once in "The Shakespeare Code," the first two episodes.

He also said her name when other people asked about her--Donna in "The Runaway Bride" and Jack in "Utopia." Then the Master brought her up in "Last of the Time Lords," Martha brought her up in "Gridlock," and John Smith drew her in "Human Nature." So the show certainly didn't forget about her, but neither was the Doctor constantly yacking about her. The Doctor himself, of his own volition, only brought her up twice.

And why shouldn't she be mentioned? She was the first person the Doctor truly connected with since the Time War. Whether you like it or not, she had a huge impact on his life, and it would be ridiculous for the show to brush it off and pretend she wasn't important.

The Doctor never appreciated Martha.

Oh, except all those times he said "Thank you" and told her how much he appreciated her.

When people say this, what they mean is "The Doctor never fucked Martha." Which is a ship-war argument and is completely immune to logic.

The Doctor brings death and destruction wherever he goes, and leaves disaster behind him for others to clean up.

Oh, now this one is just silly. The Doctor goes where there is already (about to be) death and destruction, finds himself in the middle of it, and does what he can to help. It's a simple matter of cause and effect. The Doctor doesn't cause the tragedy; he just finds himself in bad situations and makes them better than they would've been without him. This doesn't stop people who only see a small part of the picture from assuming that the Doctor must be responsible, but they're just plain wrong.

As for leaving a mess behind--well, the mess was going to be there anyway. He's already taken the time to help the situation, right whatever wrong was going on; why should this imply an additional obligation to stick around and rebuild? It's not his place to go around rebuilding everyone else's societies anyway, and part of what the Doctor does is teach others how to help themselves. That would hardly work if he just hovered around forever doing everything for them.

The Doctor really thinks he's a god, his behavior is unacceptably arrogant, and he needs to be brought down.

Oh my god, what show are these people watching? He knows perfectly well that he isn't a god. He knew it when Rose was torn away from him forever. He knew it when he couldn't bring Astrid back. He knew it when he had to kill his entire species in order to save the universe. Seriously, if he were a god, he'd have been able to stop these horrible things from happening.

But what makes him the Doctor is that he keeps trying anyway. He's not a god, but in nearly every situation he encounters, he's the most powerful being in the room. This isn't arrogance; it's fact. He accepts that (to paraphrase Peter Parker's Uncle Ben) this power comes with responsibility. He acts to the best of his ability, even though he's not perfect, because he knows it's better to do something than to do nothing. How can you complain about arrogance when it manifests as "trying to save as many people as possible"?

Sometimes he screws up. Sometimes he does everything he possibly can but it's still not enough. Just about every time, though, he helps. He makes the situation better than it would have been without him. He can't save everyone on the Titanic, but he saves a few passengers and, oh yeah, the entire Earth. Do people really think the situation would have been better if the Doctor hadn't "arrogantly" tried to help? Because we'd all be dead if he hadn't.

As far as him deserving to be brought down? No, he doesn't deserve it. But he gets brought down anyway, or did you miss the look on his face when Astrid turned into stardust? When he realized Rose was gone forever? When the Master died in his arms? Every time he thinks of Gallifrey?

***

The other thing that's annoying me today: the fact that every time Doctor Who shows up on Fandom Wank, it turns into a big Rose-bashing extravaganza. It's just an excuse for a bunch of ugly grudgewank from bitter Martha fans, who are far more wanky than those they're mocking.

***

(Comments of whatever sort are fine, but as this is more of a rant than a reasoned argument meant to convince others, I'll probably not respond to anything too argumentative.)

[Cross-posted to InsaneJournal]

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

It's crazy, isn't it? Makes me almost long for the wank just being over what media are canon or whether Colin Baker was any good. All this companion war crap is really too much.

That being said, I'm going to agree with some things and not with others..... I think sometimes you might have missed the point a bit.

1) The Sycorax ship was a slaver ship, not their entire society. She wasn't exactly committing genocide against innocents by destroying it. Also, and maybe more to the point: she's only met the Doctor once before... unlike the audience, she doesn't know that she can trust him or that he almost always wins. Maybe it wasn't the moral thing to do, but I think it was understandable.

2) As far as Rose and the Doctor's behavior.... the way "B" is realized is actually the option people are complaining about, not "A" (which you're right, didn't happen"). Because they were pretty proud and smug in S2, to the point that some people found it grating. I think that was intentional character development, honestly, to kind of prep people for her departure. But that doesn't mean she "deserved" to be stuck in another universe, no.

4) Yeah, it does annoy me when people say that. He did care about Martha. Maybe not as much as he did about Rose, but realistically - everybody cares about some of their friends more than others. That's life, it happens. But I think some people view that as a rejection (and if they strongly identify with her, a rejecion of themselves).

6) Oh god, I hate this one! I mean, yeah, the Doctor's arrogant - but you know, he is better than most people he runs into. He's always been arrogant, but in him it's an endearing trait, somehow. It's not unacceptable or unreasonable, and he doesn't at all need to be "brought down".

I guess I tend to approach fandoms through the perspective of a single character. I saw BtVS through Spike's POV, and I see DW through the Tenth Doctor's. So while I can see how he was thoughtless toward those other characters, I can't really bring myself to care. :P

I actually don't think he was ever particularly callous to Rose or Martha. He was thoughtless and oblivious sometimes, but so were they to him (like Rose dragging along a string of boyfriends in S1 or Martha completely dismissing that he was in mourning and resenting that he didn't immediately fall for her). And he did give them the opportunity to travel through time and space, which IMO pretty much makes up for the occasional bit of rude behavior. I also don't think Ten is any worse than Nine (I just re-watched the scene where Nine refuses to have tea with Rose and Jackie, and that was pretty damn rude.)

OTOH, I'll agree that he was callous toward Jack. But it makes sense to me emotionally; Ten always runs away from difficult emotional situations, as if by ignoring them he won't ever have to deal with them. It's not healthy, but it's understandable; it's one of those flaws that just makes me love him more. (Probably because it's an exaggerated version of something I tend to do, too.)

As for the Family, well, it's not like they didn't earn it. I'd agree that an ideal benevolent godlike figure wouldn't have taken such harsh revenge, but if the Doctor was perfect the show would be boring. What he did was in response to emotional devastation that they'd inflicted on him. I would have done the same thing if I had that kind of power; it's not "right" but to me it's sympathetic and understandable.

what is this whole concept that the Doctor needs to obey some ST:TNG version of the Prime Directive at all? A non-interference policy never has been part of this show; actually quite the opposite

Yeah, the show would be pretty boring if the Doctor never did anything!

Thanks!

if the Doctor hadn't choosen 1913, would all those people have died?

Yeah, but even there, I have a really hard time blaming the Doctor for the devastation inflicted by the Family. They are responsible for their own crimes. The Doctor ended up in 1913 out of compassion, because he was trying to avoid bloodshed. It's tragic that the Family didn't give up, and followed him to inflict more pain on others, but it's not his fault that they chose to act so violently.

I can hold him a bit responsible for not thoroughly thinking through the situation; his blase attitude did result in him leading a group of homicidal aliens to a vulnerable human population. But again, he was trying to act out of kindness, and if his plan had worked no one would have died. I really just can't blame him for what the Family did. It would've been far worse if he'd caused those deaths out of selfishness or cruelty, but I give him a pretty big pass since he was acting out of compassion.

I also think that Joan was being pretty damn unfair by blaming it on the Doctor. He's saved this world more times than she can imagine, and she really doesn't know the whole situation. I don't blame her for lashing out; she was suffering at the time, and could barely look in the eyes of the alien who'd taken away than man she loved. So she struck out and got him to go away, but I don't think we're meant to take her statement as Truth; it's coming from a very (understandably) biased POV.

Thanks!

And even that was over done if you take old skool who into consideration.

Yep. Which is why I sure am glad that television has evolved and we have nice things like emotional continuity now. ;)

Thanks! I'm glad you liked it.

Haha, thanks.

It's much saner over there, yes. :)

Some of this I can agree with; some I think I would nuance a bit; but this...

Harriet Jones shot a retreating enemy in the back.

Yes, she did.

She annihilated an entire society, including those who hadn't been fighting.

Uh, no, as I recall she shot a slaving ship. They were trawling the universe for slaves to take back to their society. If Harriet hadn't shot them, they probably would have gone on to another planet to enslave (that's why, even if she did annihilate an entire society, she's still done the universe a favour), or to tell their home planet where Earth was and send reinforcements. Would it have protected Earth forever? No. Bought a bit of time? Probably. It's a grey area. It's probably the best solution given those parameters. The Doctor is not always around.

For me, it's not so much because I like Harriet in the show that it pisses me off. It's because once again RTD created a strong middle-aged female character and then used a sexist, agist, back-stabbing way to get rid of her. Whether or not she could have held off the Saxon invasion is neither here nor there to me. I just thought it was distasteful, both inside and outside of the show.

I also find Ten a little genocide-happy himself, and his being emo doesn't really excuse it.

God I SO agree with you!!!
It's like the Doctor had to apology to Martha because he wasn't in love with her.
I mean, love is not something you choose. It's not logical.. You just fall in love and that's it.
And if you watch again series three, you'll see Ten trusted martha a lot more than he has ever trusted Rose. When he'll put his life, Jack's and the world's fate between Martha's hands, he'll just send Rose back home. People can argue he wasn't very nice with miss Jones in "Human nature", but he wasn't himself... while he was very much the Doctor when he left Rose & Mickey, with no hope of ever seeing him again in "The girl in the fireplace".

Quite.

I *hate* when people use 'emotional continuity!!!' about that. It just makes the Doctor look like a bigger prick when it comes to Jack, Mickey, ect.

Hmm. I can't comment sensibly on the Rose stuff, 'cos I don't share your premise about what their relationship was about. But ...

Those last two seem to me Cartmel-era/NA readings of the Doctor that can be applied to the new series if you want. They're certainly not definitively wrong.

As to Martha, she certainly felt unappreciated; she tells us so explicitly at the end of LotTL. So at the very least, the Doctor didn't manage to make her understand his appreciation (which fits with his general not-always-getting-emotions thing).

I'm sorry but the Doctor told Martha repeatedly that she was awesome and that he thanked her. If she failed to hear that, it's a flaw in Martha, not a flaw in the Doctor.

She didn't tell him she felt unappreciated in LotTL; she told him she couldn't take being around an unrequited crush. That was an emotional growing process that Martha had to go through; it had nothing to do with the Doctor "mistreating" her. He simply didn't feel the same romantic attraction she felt, which is not a crime.

Unless you are seriously implying that anytime anyone has a crush on you, you are morally obligated to reciprocate in order to protect that person's self-esteem?

You're just jellus cos the only person the Master fucked was LUCY.

Thanks!

Yes, the idea that one can be morally obligated to return a another's love is just plain ridiculous. You're obligated to treat people with common decency (which the Doctor did towards Martha--he was constantly thanking her) but you are not obligated to love someone. Romantic love either happens or it doesn't; it's not something you can (or should) force.

Oh, I don't know. A lot could've happened during that year that never was. ;)

She didn't tell him she felt unappreciated in LotTL; she told him she couldn't take being around an unrequited crush.

She told him she "spent a long time feeling second best", or words to that effect. That's about more than the crush.

(And no, the Doctor's not morally obligated to reciprocate. He is morally obligated not to be an utter arse about it, which he is when he uses the unrequited love analogy for the perception filter -- after the end of Family of Blood there is absolutely no doubt that he knows.)

she shot a slaving ship.

Did they explain this in the text of the show? All I (or Harriet) can go on is what I see, and I don't recall them saying that. They said that they were wanted to collect slaves but they didn't say who was actually on their ship.

Regardless, she still shot a retreating enemy in the back, and it was still wrong.

I think your sexism argument is just plain wrong. The diversity of casting is one of the things I love about this show; you have older women, queer people, and people of color, all in a wide variety of roles. This show is full of powerful middle-aged women, and I don't see them falling into any kind of distasteful pattern--they've been doting mothers, spaceship captains, explorers, resistance fighters, and a Prime Minister who was morally ambiguous, but certainly not evil.

I keep seeing the argument in fandom that you should never have anything bad happen to characters who are members of certain interest groups, and to me that's what's insulting. The idea is that, what, all the nuanced, three-dimensional parts should go to white men, because you can't risk showing a minority or woman in any kind of ambiguous light? Please. Obviously you don't want to fall into a pattern where only they are the only characters who screw up, but it's just as offensive to cast them only as white hats who can do no wrong.

Maybe it wasn't the moral thing to do, but I think it was understandable.

Oh, I definitely think it was understandable. I like Harriet Jones, and I think she made an understandable mistake. I just think the Doctor's reaction is also completely understandable.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see "proud and smug." I see two people who truly deserve happiness finally getting it, for a brief wonderful period before it's ripped away from them. Obviously it's a matter of interpretation, but I think the fact that they're bothering to go around helping people shows that they care about others, even when they're caught up in each other.

everybody cares about some of their friends more than others. That's life, it happens. But I think some people view that as a rejection (and if they strongly identify with her, a rejecion of themselves).

Definitely. We all project our own life experiences onto our interpretations of fandom. I just think it goes overboard when you start actively ignoring canon because you can't get beyond your personal issues that don't actually have any relation to what's happened on the show.

Yes, because giving her the opportunity to travel through time and space and thanking her constantly for being awesome is so insignificant compared to the occasional thoughtless remark.

Thanks! Glad you liked it.

Did they explain this in the text of the show?

They called it a slaving ship. I think the parallel to Earth slaving was fairly clear (even the reference to Sycorax).

Regardless, she still shot a retreating enemy in the back, and it was still wrong.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's a difficult decision and that she had a right to make that decision - more of a right than the Doctor had. Yes, he's always been an interfering so-and-so, but his setting himself up as the highest authority is offensive as hell (I also think his forgiving the Master for what had happened to humanity - even if it's only obliquely - in LOTTL was offensive). I think Harriet's actions could have been an interesting talking point, but I think RTD just wanted his "cute" Belgrano parallel (because the situation is not the same), and to have it simplified to black and white is always a wrong decision.

As for the "pattern", I've watched a lot of RTD things, and this does fit a pattern. But it's not so much them torpedoing her that pisses me off, it's the way they did it. I do think they've been open in casting, but to say that it's all been handled well is simplistic.

I think you're really reducing things to black/white, but I'll step back now. You have a right to your opinion in your LJ.

Thanks! I'm glad you liked it.

I just got into the fandom, too, end of October. And it's really quite shocking how the show discussed in fandom bears so little relationship to the show I saw on my television.

God, I know. It's really depressing watching the ways fandom tears Rose down. I don't mind if you dislike a character, but making up reasons to hate her based on things she didn't actually do is just plain annoying. (There's a lot of really unquestioned Classism in it a lot of times, too, which drives me insane, because it comes from the same people wanking about how racist it was for the Doctor not to fall in love with Martha.)

But the reaction in some quarters to season three has really staggered me with the near-reversal of their Ten-adoration.

Oh, totally. As much as I enjoyed season two, it was season three that really grabbed me, because they took the Doctor to darker and more complex places. Perfect characters are boring; give me ambiguity and flaws, please!

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Since I haven't gotten my rant on in quite a while: Doctor Who fandom memes that piss me off

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