Since I haven't gotten my rant on in quite a while: Doctor Who fandom memes that piss me off

[rusty_halo]

I hate getting into arguments, but Doctor Who fandom is driving me fucking insane. So I'm going to rant here on my own journal, where no one has to see it if they don't want to.

Doctor Who fandom memes, and why they piss me off.

The Doctor was horribly mean to poor Harriet Jones.

Harriet Jones shot a retreating enemy in the back. She annihilated an entire society, including those who hadn't been fighting. Can you imagine if this was common practice? War would never end until one side had been completely destroyed; no one would ever surrender because they'd know they'd just get killed anyway.

Sure, it's easy for a human audience to shrug it off and say, "Well, they were just aliens," but the Doctor isn't human. We're all aliens to him and he saw one alien species behaving badly to another, and he did what he always does: put a stop to it. That's who the Doctor is, someone who sees injustice and acts to end it.

I like and sympathize with Harriet Jones, but she did something wrong, and she paid the price.

If you want to complain that the Doctor has no right to go interfering in alien societies, well, go ahead, but I don't see why you even watch the show, because all the Doctor does is interfere in alien societies.

People also like to complain that the Master's election as Prime Minister was a direct result of the Doctor bringing down Harriet Jones. It's a nice irony, but come on. If the Doctor could bring Jones down with six words, you really think the Master couldn't with fifteen satellites?

The Doctor and Rose deserved to be torn apart in "Doomsday" because of their callous behavior in previous episodes.

Oh, honestly. They're in love, they've been through harrowing events and come out stronger, they're traveling around the universe having adventures, and they're giddy and happy to be together. And, being that one of them is the Doctor, they run into trouble. What do they do?

A) Ignore the trouble and go off somewhere else to have more giddy fun.
B) Fix the trouble, help whoever they can, and continue to enjoy themselves while they do it.
C) Realize that the universe is a terrible awful place, and mope around being miserable for an entire season.

A) would be the callous response that a lot of fandom seems to think they did. B) would be the simultaneously compassionate and fun response they actually chose. C) would be the extremely depressing response that a lot of fandom wishes they'd chosen.

I have no problem with the Doctor and Rose being happy together and refusing to hide it. They don't have to help anyone, but they choose to. When someone saves your life, are you going to complain that they're not taking the situation seriously enough, or are you just going to be fucking glad that someone saved your life?

Seriously. They deserve all the fun they can get. The Doctor has saved the universe more times that I can count, and Rose did her own heart-of-the-TARDIS-absorbing universe-saving thing very recently too. This is the first happiness the Doctor's felt since he lost Gallifrey, and I can't believe there are bitter fans begrudging it because... what? They don't like the 'ship? They want everyone to be grim and miserable all the time? They've got some kind of Puritan idea that happiness must be punished?

As for "They brought about their own destruction," please. Queen Victoria brought about their destruction by being close-minded and afraid of anything beyond her own understanding. Torchwood brought about their destruction by being stupid and power hungry. The Doctor and Rose didn't do anything wrong. If they hadn't been there, Victoria would have been bitten and Britain would be ruled by werewolves. (LOL.) Instead, the Doctor and Rose showed up and saved the country, and what did they get? Banished. Torchwood resulted, and Torchwood tore them apart, which is tragic, and ironic, but it's certainly not their fault.

The Doctor brought up Rose constantly throughout season three.

He really didn't. He brought up Rose two times at the very beginning of the season, when he was still reeling from having lost her. Once in "Smith and Jones" and once in "The Shakespeare Code," the first two episodes.

He also said her name when other people asked about her--Donna in "The Runaway Bride" and Jack in "Utopia." Then the Master brought her up in "Last of the Time Lords," Martha brought her up in "Gridlock," and John Smith drew her in "Human Nature." So the show certainly didn't forget about her, but neither was the Doctor constantly yacking about her. The Doctor himself, of his own volition, only brought her up twice.

And why shouldn't she be mentioned? She was the first person the Doctor truly connected with since the Time War. Whether you like it or not, she had a huge impact on his life, and it would be ridiculous for the show to brush it off and pretend she wasn't important.

The Doctor never appreciated Martha.

Oh, except all those times he said "Thank you" and told her how much he appreciated her.

When people say this, what they mean is "The Doctor never fucked Martha." Which is a ship-war argument and is completely immune to logic.

The Doctor brings death and destruction wherever he goes, and leaves disaster behind him for others to clean up.

Oh, now this one is just silly. The Doctor goes where there is already (about to be) death and destruction, finds himself in the middle of it, and does what he can to help. It's a simple matter of cause and effect. The Doctor doesn't cause the tragedy; he just finds himself in bad situations and makes them better than they would've been without him. This doesn't stop people who only see a small part of the picture from assuming that the Doctor must be responsible, but they're just plain wrong.

As for leaving a mess behind--well, the mess was going to be there anyway. He's already taken the time to help the situation, right whatever wrong was going on; why should this imply an additional obligation to stick around and rebuild? It's not his place to go around rebuilding everyone else's societies anyway, and part of what the Doctor does is teach others how to help themselves. That would hardly work if he just hovered around forever doing everything for them.

The Doctor really thinks he's a god, his behavior is unacceptably arrogant, and he needs to be brought down.

Oh my god, what show are these people watching? He knows perfectly well that he isn't a god. He knew it when Rose was torn away from him forever. He knew it when he couldn't bring Astrid back. He knew it when he had to kill his entire species in order to save the universe. Seriously, if he were a god, he'd have been able to stop these horrible things from happening.

But what makes him the Doctor is that he keeps trying anyway. He's not a god, but in nearly every situation he encounters, he's the most powerful being in the room. This isn't arrogance; it's fact. He accepts that (to paraphrase Peter Parker's Uncle Ben) this power comes with responsibility. He acts to the best of his ability, even though he's not perfect, because he knows it's better to do something than to do nothing. How can you complain about arrogance when it manifests as "trying to save as many people as possible"?

Sometimes he screws up. Sometimes he does everything he possibly can but it's still not enough. Just about every time, though, he helps. He makes the situation better than it would have been without him. He can't save everyone on the Titanic, but he saves a few passengers and, oh yeah, the entire Earth. Do people really think the situation would have been better if the Doctor hadn't "arrogantly" tried to help? Because we'd all be dead if he hadn't.

As far as him deserving to be brought down? No, he doesn't deserve it. But he gets brought down anyway, or did you miss the look on his face when Astrid turned into stardust? When he realized Rose was gone forever? When the Master died in his arms? Every time he thinks of Gallifrey?

***

The other thing that's annoying me today: the fact that every time Doctor Who shows up on Fandom Wank, it turns into a big Rose-bashing extravaganza. It's just an excuse for a bunch of ugly grudgewank from bitter Martha fans, who are far more wanky than those they're mocking.

***

(Comments of whatever sort are fine, but as this is more of a rant than a reasoned argument meant to convince others, I'll probably not respond to anything too argumentative.)

[Cross-posted to InsaneJournal]

Comments

[versaphile.livejournal.com]

This is basically the rant I've been wanting to write since getting back into the fandom. Thank you for doing it for me so I can just nod along instead of froth endlessly at my journal.

I don't know why fandom has these huge invented issues with the Doctor, but I would like them to stop.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks! It was definitely a relief to finally write all that. I'm just kind of boggled by how very little relation the fannish discourse has with the actual show that I watched.

It's like every fan faction has a different grudge against the Doctor. He's too perky or he's too dark or he didn't fawn over their favorite character enough or... just, argh. I thought there'd be more Doctor fans in Doctor Who fandom. I am still in that OMGSQUEE! stage and venturing out into DW fandom is like having a bucket of cold water thrown over all my happy thoughts.

[writteninstars.livejournal.com]

How happy am I that I'm not actively *in* that fandom? I love the show. A lot. But I have zero interest of being swallowed up in wank like I used to be when I was *in* Buffy fandom.

And knowing that these are the issues people have? Well, yeah, I am really grateful to just watch the show and love on it 'cause these folks are crazy to me!

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

There's some really good fic in the fandom. But, yeah, I've pretty much only lurked in the discussion areas, because I want to keep my squee going as long as possible. I spent way too much time in Buffy fandom complaining and arguing; I just want to have fun now.

[psubrat.livejournal.com]

Word. Just...word.

Rusty Davies has said, as has Julie Gardner, that Rose and the Doctor were in love and that he was mourning her during series three. I don't know why these 'ship wars erupt when it comes to Rose/Martha. Ten loved Rose. He liked Martha. Did he treat Martha poorly? If their relationship would be looked at realistically, rather than through rose-colored glasses (oh the irony), Martha was the one that was in love with him, and she knew full well that he had lost someone very close to him. That didn't stop her from following him around making eyes at him and then getting all upset when he didn't return her affections. While I don't hate the character of Martha, I do dislike the way she was written. If we could have had "Last of the Time Lords" Martha all series long, I would have been more than happy with that. But we didn't. We got love sick Martha instead, mooning after a man who was completely unavailable to her. As Ten put it in "The Sound of Drums", it's like when you fancy someone and they have no idea you're alive. Yeah, exactly like that. It wasn't that Ten didn't know she existed, it's just he didn't see past his own pain to even consider that Martha was in love with him. She was his companion, a friend, that's all.

While I respect that there are other 'ships out there besides Ten/Rose, I just don't understand the venom towards Rose by the Martha fans. It makes no sense to me.

[jerrymcl89.livejournal.com]

I like Martha as a character, but in terms of the shipping aspect, it's kind of like the Buffy/Xander people. You don't get someone to love you just because you've paid your dues and "deserve it".

Regarding other knocks on the Doctor, I think he is arrogant and flawed, but I don't really see why that's a problem.

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

I've been formally involved in DW fandom since 1988. *wibble*

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

You are my Yoda, man.

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

Welcome to DW fandom! Arguing over canon for more than 40 years! Seriously, listening to some of the old timers talk, New School are just babies in the way of fandom wars. But in the grand tradition of engaging debate, I dive in...

No, I don't think the Doctor was horribly mean to Harriet Jones. I do think he was irresponsible. While he doesn't think he is a god, he does believe himself to be a higher authority (as he states in New Earth) and he does not like being crossed when it comes to the big stuff. Whether Harriet Jones had a right to shoot the Sycorax out of the sky is debatable, but the Doctor who has preached against changing time lines again and again, took down "The Golden Age of Britain" because he didn't like her actions. That was a deliberate decision on his part which had consequences, one of which there was a power vaccuum that was taken advantage of by The Master. Would the Master still have wreaked havoc and tried to destroy the world? Hell, yeah. But, just as the events of "Bad Wolf" are a consequence of "The Long Game" and, yes, to an extent "Doomsday" is a result of "Tooth & Claw", the Master's ascension to that particular place is a result of "The Christmas Invasion."

In fact, I think that's one thing that New Who *has* done exceptionally well: made the Doctor fallible and shown that there are consequences. Yes, he does a tremendous amount of good but everything has a cost. And while it isn't his job, as you say, to stick around and play clean-up, I'd think he'd have some sort of obligation to ensure that he didn't make things worse. There is, of course, the issue of free will but I think his actions in TCI come off as a bit arrogant, which totally fits in with his "I'm that kind of man" characterization.

As far as Rose deserving to be ripped into an alternate world because of their hubris? I agree with you. I don't think she deserved it. But on the flip side, T&C was the one episode where I thought Rose was extremely OOC. She has always been the Doctor's compassion, the heart where he was logic. Her inappropriate quips in front of the Queen, while Lady Isobel was standing right next to her were really in poor taste and jarring for the character. There was a woman whose husband had just sacrificed himself to save the three of them and Rose and the Doctor are making childish jokes? I'll never forgive the writers for that one because that's *not* the Rose I knew.

As for the Rose and Martha stuff - Yes. ITA. Any reasonable debate on their characterization has been lost in the fire of ship wars and there's no sense even trying. That road is long and bitter, my friend.

I think I can see the nuggets of where fandom is coming up with the assumptions that are making you nuts, but with most things fannish, there are some people who push it to the wall.

And since this isn't said in Who fandom nearly enough: YMMV. ;)

edited because "infallible" and "fallible" are really two entirely different concepts. ;)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

You know, it took me years of arguing in Buffy fandom to figure out that sometimes people just disagree, but that they can still be friends and that neither side is wrong or right. We all bring our own life experiences and see the show through our own perspectives, so of course our opinions differ.

I almost always see fandom through the eyes of one character, who I adore completely and of whom I can forgive anything. Anything s/he does wrong just makes me love him/her more. (For example: "Methos killed tens of thousands of people once? Awesome!")

I agree that the Doctor sees himself as a higher authority... I just think he's right. He *is* usually the most powerful person in the room. He's the smartest and he understands more than anyone else, and he has more ability to act and to change things than anyone else. I'm glad that he acts, even if he makes mistakes, because I think it's better to try to stop wrongdoing than to sit back and claim that it's not your place.

He changes time lines every time he acts, so I don't see how stopping Harriet Jones was different from any of the other wrongdoing that he regularly stops. It just looks different to us because she's human, but to him, everyone's an alien, and he stops wrongdoing regardless. (Of course, when it comes to his own species he's totally biased, but I love that too. Doctor/Master FTW.)

I'd think he'd have some sort of obligation to ensure that he didn't make things worse.

Has he ever really made things worse? (In the new series; I haven't seen the old.) As far as I can tell, even when he's left situations less than perfect, his presence stopped an even greater evil from occurring. And I just don't think it's his responsibility to pick up the pieces for everyone else; if he leaves and people screw up again, that's their fault.

I don't see Rose's behavior in T&C as inappropriate. Everyone would've died if she and the Doctor hadn't shown up and helped. She was a little irreverent, but that's part of what I love about her and the Doctor--that they genuinely enjoyed themselves, instead of pretty much every other show where characters are constantly suffering the Epic Burden of having awesome adventures and exciting lives. I certainly don't think it's anything they needed to be punished for.

But, yeah. Totally YMMV.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

Some of the Martha fen give me Kittens flashbacks - and not in the fluffy ball of goodness sort of way - only this time the writing team aren't bending over for them, which gievn what happened last time can only be a good thing.

Re Harriet, I'm still totally convinced she paid for the Brig's Silurians go boom back in the Three era - something the Doctor really held a grudge and could only bitch about while he was exiled to Earth./Old Skooler

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Dude. The Kittens! That's totally it! Except I was actually way more sympathetic to the Kittens, because as much as they blew it insanely out of proportion, they did have a real issue underneath. Joss killed Tara pretty callously to get a reaction out of Willow with no regard for Tara's own story. And while I'm sure he didn't intend it, it fell into a discriminatory pattern that he really should've been aware of and more sensitive to. (Plus then he watered down the dark Willow arc anyway!)

In contrast, the Martha fans are throwing a bitch fit about nothing. Both the first and last episodes of the season were ALL ABOUT how awesome Martha was, with plenty of episodes in between highlighting her awesomeness. Her entire story arc was "starts out awesome, ends up EVEN MORE AWESOME." The ONLY THING her fans didn't get was their ship, and I think what's really offensive is them bringing up major real life issues and then using them to justify their side in a ship war.

[mary5958.livejournal.com]

*loves you*

:-)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Awww, I've missed you, Mary! The photomanips you've been posting in your journal recently are really pretty, btw.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Word, is the word! I am behind you completely in your rant-a-thon. thisficklemob sent me to you because she's heard almost all of this before from me. Then, she told me who you were...and I decided I needed to say, Hello! I don't know if you remember me...but I did have some Spuffy fic up at All About Spike. And I'm one of the Old School Who fans for the Doctor and Rose.

I was actually a bit appalled when I discovered the online DW fandom because...WHOA! There were bunch of serious loons in it. I mean, there are in every fandom...I am not saying I'm loon immune in any case...I can go off in my own right into loon territory. But I've got as much invested in the Doctor as anybody. I watched the show from the very beginning on American television...so since the 1970s...and find that New Who gives me exactly the same man...with a little more life experience under his belt...in a more perilous position. He's still lovable and fantastic and his loving Rose did nothing but give him extra dimension as a character.

Rae
ranting her own self...sorry! Oh...and I should pimp my Doctor/Rose fic...in case you do remember me from All About Spike and wanted to see what I was doing with this fandom.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

It's good to hear from an old school fan who approves of New Who! I think a lot of times fans get set in their ways and react with negativity when anything changes, but with a fandom this old of course things are going to change. You have to evolve with the times. There are so many wonderful things about the new series that it makes me sad how many supposed fans refuse to appreciate it.

Yep, I totally remember you from the Spike days! I still have you on my FL, actually, I just hardly ever comment. It's really cool that you're writing fic in this fandom too.

I really enjoyed the Doctor/Rose relationship in canon; Billie Piper had great chemistry with both actors, and she's an excellent actress. I really loved their whole "traveling around having adventures" thing; they didn't get bogged down in any of that silly "why can't we settle down and be normal" angst that so often afflicts such ships. I love that Rose chose to stay with the Doctor even though it meant losing her family, and that he accepted it, and it was fate--rather than their decisions--that tore them apart. (Such a nice contrast to Buffy's "I want to be normal!" and Angel's "This decision is final and I'm making it for your own good.")

I'm not really a shipper, though, and I don't get into Doctor/Rose in fanfic. I'm pretty exclusively into slash these days, and the only ship I've gotten into is Doctor/Master. >:)

[jaydk.livejournal.com]

You. Are. The. Best! Awesome, delightfully coherent rant.

A few comments:

1) I like Harriet Jones, but the Sycorax were retreating, and that makes what she did murder. Sympathetic characters can commit terrible acts -- what Harriet did isn't right just because we like her. I think the Doctor had as much right to take her down as he did to defend the Earth from the Sycorax in the first place -- which is actually, none at all when you think about it. The Doctor does what he does not because he has the right, but because it's the right thing to do. And I love the reminder that as much as the Doctor loves humanity, he's not going to turn a blind eye to the murder of another species that was no longer in conflict with Earth. Go Ten, says I.

2) I have never understood why the Doctor and Rose are perceived as so freakin' awful for enjoying their adventures through time and space. That's one of the reasons I love them -- because they do enjoy themselves so much together. And while Rose's joke was a little stupid in Tooth & Claw, I certainly don't think some irreverence meant she "deserved" to have her heart broken. Torchwood's imperialist greed had far more direct responsibility for Rose being trapped in Pete's World, especially since it happened because she and the Doctor were in the process of saving the world from Torchwood's near-destruction of it. The people who make the actual decision to punch a hole through dimensions out of greed have more responsibility than the people who made a bad joke nearly 150 years ago. Crazy idea, eh?

3) The Doctor actually doesn't bring Rose up in Gridlock -- Martha references her. The Doctor brings up Rose himself all of twice in series three, in just the first two episodes, and yet somehow, this is perceived to be "constant" and that the Doctor is somehow stuck on Rose. Honestly, I think the Doctor will always miss Rose, but he's pretty much gotten over the worst of the grief by the mid-point of the series at the latest. Much as I loathe that Dalek two-parter, I think encountering the Daleks again and trying to help them change is actually healing for him in terms of all he's lost thanks to the Daleks (at least until the Master brings the pain of Gallifrey back again). I think it's notable that it's after this encounter that the Doctor gives up the "just one trip" bit with Martha and makes her a full-fledged companion. The Doctor is able to move on, IMO...

4)...but the problem I guess is that the Doctor never moves on to Martha romantically. So therefore, all of his hugs and his thanks and his trusting Martha to take care of human him in 1913 and having faith in Martha to spread the story that would save the world -- none of that matters, because the Doctor doesn't return Martha's romantic feelings and somehow, the only way one can appreciate someone is to fall in love with them. That argument is just totally ridiculous to me -- you have to actively ignore what happens on-screen to make it. Like the Doctor saying thank you a lot!

5) The usual situation is people are dying, the Doctor shows up, he and his companions help save the day, and people stop dying. Not everything the Doctor does is right, but what about the responsibility of the people in the situation to make the right choices? Don't they have at least as much responsibility for what happens next, if not more? If the Doctor helps clean up your mess, why is it his job to keep you from making another one -- isn't that your job?

6) Which goes to the final point -- the Doctor isn't a god, and he knows it. He does his best, but he still loses. The courage of the Doctor is he keeps trying. I don't see how the better alternative would be for the Doctor to believe he can't make a difference when he can, or not act rather than act to save lives. The Doctor makes changes in history every time he saves someone or cures someone or stops someone -- and with his level of knowledge, even choosing not to act is a choice that will affect others. I think the Doctor acts not because he thinks he's a god, but because he thinks he's right -- and most of the time, he is.

Ahh, that was fun -- although mostly just repeating your well-stated points. But still fun! ;-)

[jaydk.livejournal.com]

Just reading my own comment, and wow, what a nutty Doctor fan I am! Of the character, I mean. I do think he's flawed and he does make bad choices, but honestly, I think his number of good choices is way way higher, and he seems to get very little credit for that in fandom. So I give him lots ;-). I guess that's the danger of saving humanity and inspiring others to become heroes time and time again...it's just taken for granted.

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes. You've just highlighted all the reasons why, though I love the show, I'm not in the fandom. Yikes. And the Doctor can be an arrogant bastard, but that's one of the reasons why I love him.

and Britain would be ruled by werewolves.

I want to see that episode!

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

And the Doctor can be an arrogant bastard, but that's one of the reasons why I love him.

Yeah, I guess my reaction whenever the Doctor does something questionable is "Ooh, awesome! Moral ambiguity!" Whereas it seems like fandom is like "Boo hiss! How dare he not be PERFECT!?" Perfect characters are boring.

Plus, compared to the characters I've loved in the past (mass murdering vampire, mass murdering immortal...) the Doctor is positively a White Hat. ('Course I also love the Master... mass murdering Time Lord....)

[dalmeny]

The Doctor brought up Rose constantly throughout season three.

In comparison to how often he's mentioned other past companions, he really did. In comparison to any human who's lost a dear friend, he was a model stoic.

I'm Old Skool enough to still loathe the idea of Doctor/Companion, regardless of the companion.

My two pet hates of Dr Who fandom memes are:

(i) Madame de Pompadour would have been just an ordinary woman as a companion. How many other middle class women managed to become serious political players in 18th century Europe? She deliberately sought power and she was good at obtaining it. And the Dr Who version was really frightening in how she took s much in her stride. MdP would never be an ordinary woman.

(ii) The Doctor could accidentally father a child. The Time Lords had all that technology and yet somehow never developed decent contraception? Given their long life spans and tailored physiology, I'd be surprised if they didn't have to consciously want a kid before their repro systems swithced on...

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

The old show really just doesn't have much appeal to me. I've tried watching it, but I think television has evolved immensely since then, and writers these days are far more likely to take risks and to tell more complex stories with more three-dimensional characters. I have a hard time seeing the old show as anything but a less-evolved version of the new one. I know this is blasphemy to a big part of the fandom, but, whatever. I like what I like.

If the Doctor hadn't mentioned Rose after she'd left, it would've cheapened the story they'd told for the previous two seasons, which was all about how Rose helped him come out of his shell and enjoy life again after the trauma of the Time War. It would be a far less interesting and meaningful show if they ignored important relationships that came before.

Madame de Pompadour would have been just an ordinary woman as a companion.

Where is that from? Fanfic? I haven't seen it, but yeah. Madame de Pompadour was amazing. I adored her, because she was brilliant and charming and very dark and ruthless, just like the Doctor. I loved that episode because it's really rare to see such a well-drawn, three-dimensional female character, especially in a one-episode role.

The Doctor could accidentally father a child.

Gaaaah. See, I haven't seen this, because I'd rather gouge my own eyes out than read babyfic. I think part of the reason I avoid het entirely is because this way there is no risk of babies coming along and invading my imagination.

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

Totally agree - I can't believe anyone is putting these arguments forward - why are they watching?

Harriet Jones deserved far worse than she got, but because he's the Doctor, he didn't give it to her.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's really interesting how divergent opinions are about Harriet Jones. I like her a lot, but I also think what she did was wrong, and that the Doctor stopping her is no different from any of the other "stopping wrongdoing" that he always does.

But I see everything from "Harriet Jones is the Antichrist!" to "The Tenth Doctor is a monster for being so mean to her!" At least it leads to interesting discussions, as long as people don't get too wanky.

random who comments

[circe-tigana.livejournal.com]

As far as I can tell, the show is nearly completely separate from the wank. The wank is wanton, and came into being before many elements were even introduced. People hated Rose&Doctor from the start because it wasn't Doctor&Companion. People hated Martha from the first press release annoucing her because she wasn't Rose. People hated Seaon 2 from the start because it wasn't Season 1. The show didn't actually have to do anything; and in many cases, it literally didn't.

So yeah. I tend to see a lot of the stuff you're ranting about as completely divorced from the reality of watching the show. It's fandom, as you pointed out, not Doctor Who.

Having said all that, I feel good about my intense dislike of Torchwood. I feel like I came about it honestly because I found the writing to be lazy, boring and offensive and I found the character of Jack and the acting work of Barrowman to work only as sidekick not as leading man. Now that's honest dislike based on personal opinion ;)

Having said ALL of that, gosh I miss Nine's season. Aside from Gridlock and Blink I could happily leave all of Season 3 and content myself with watching Tennant and Simm show up everywhere together in London and on the BBC.

Re: random who comments

[bubonicplague.livejournal.com]

Having said ALL of that, gosh I miss Nine's season. Aside from Gridlock and Blink I could happily leave all of Season 3 and content myself with watching Tennant and Simm show up everywhere together in London and on the BBC.

Major word to this.

[bubonicplague.livejournal.com]

Not all of us Martha fans are shippers, though some of them sure make us look like that's the case. Yes, I think that Ten treated Martha pretty callously, but I also think Ten treated Rose pretty callously. (And what he did to Jack was beyond callous.) That's part of the characterization for this incarnation. Five, for instance, would never have sought out twisted vengeance on the Family.

Personally, I do not get why Who fans feel the need to get so fucking bitter. Wait around a bit and there will be a new incarnation, assholes. I don't like Ten - in fact, I loathe him, but it's just another aspect of the character and I can still enjoy the show.

Hee, and what is this whole concept that the Doctor needs to obey some ST:TNG version of the Prime Directive at all? A non-interference policy never has been part of this show; actually quite the opposite.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I guess I tend to approach fandoms through the perspective of a single character. I saw BtVS through Spike's POV, and I see DW through the Tenth Doctor's. So while I can see how he was thoughtless toward those other characters, I can't really bring myself to care. :P

I actually don't think he was ever particularly callous to Rose or Martha. He was thoughtless and oblivious sometimes, but so were they to him (like Rose dragging along a string of boyfriends in S1 or Martha completely dismissing that he was in mourning and resenting that he didn't immediately fall for her). And he did give them the opportunity to travel through time and space, which IMO pretty much makes up for the occasional bit of rude behavior. I also don't think Ten is any worse than Nine (I just re-watched the scene where Nine refuses to have tea with Rose and Jackie, and that was pretty damn rude.)

OTOH, I'll agree that he was callous toward Jack. But it makes sense to me emotionally; Ten always runs away from difficult emotional situations, as if by ignoring them he won't ever have to deal with them. It's not healthy, but it's understandable; it's one of those flaws that just makes me love him more. (Probably because it's an exaggerated version of something I tend to do, too.)

As for the Family, well, it's not like they didn't earn it. I'd agree that an ideal benevolent godlike figure wouldn't have taken such harsh revenge, but if the Doctor was perfect the show would be boring. What he did was in response to emotional devastation that they'd inflicted on him. I would have done the same thing if I had that kind of power; it's not "right" but to me it's sympathetic and understandable.

what is this whole concept that the Doctor needs to obey some ST:TNG version of the Prime Directive at all? A non-interference policy never has been part of this show; actually quite the opposite

Yeah, the show would be pretty boring if the Doctor never did anything!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_tweeter_/]

I'm just peeking into the fandom and was surprised at the vitriol spewed toward Rose. So I tiptoed back out. I just watch the shows and have fun doing so. I agree with everything you said, though.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

There's some really good fanfic out there, but the fannish discussions get scary!

And, yeah. I tend to get really frustrated with the predominance of poorly written female characters in so many fandoms, so I was really happy that Doctor Who had such a well-developed female lead in Rose. And then I come into fandom and everyone hates her. *eyeroll*

[salienne.livejournal.com]

...Thank you. Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou!

I am meming this. I am meming this like whoa.

It's nice to see sanity now and again.

So... thank you!

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'm glad you liked.

[garpu.livejournal.com]

Thank you for writing the rant I've wanted to write. It's nice for a change that when a character leaves, there's fallout (unlike when Adric died and there was 5 minutes in the episode after.)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

Yeah, I think television has developed as a medium. In the past, a lot of shows had, like, emotional reset buttons, where something big and emotional would happen in one episode but would be forgotten in the next. It's a lot more common these days for events to have significant emotional ramifications into the future. I think it's a lot more emotionally honest for Rose's impact on the Doctor to be acknowledged after she'd left.

[scarfman]

I agree with some of your points and feel that others miss the respective issue.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

Brilliant, brilliant. You've put forward arguments that I totally agree with in all these cases, and yes, they do tend to be the predominent ones around the fandom, and yes, they do annoy me too.

One thing:
The Doctor brings death and destruction wherever he goes, and leaves disaster behind him for others to clean up.

As you said, untrue, bar Human Nature/Family of Blood. That is the only case I can think of otherwise. As Joan pointed out, if the Doctor hadn't choosen 1913, would all those people have died? That was one case of him bringing trouble with him, but I can't think of any others in the new series.

But yea, other than that, he doesn't create the problems - just shows up where the problems already exist.

Oh, and finally who can work with the Harriet Jones thing. I'm sick of defending the Doctor on that one, considering Harold Saxon was actually the MASTER, and if he wanted rid of Harriet Jones, he could have done it himself anyway. None of this "the Doctor actually bought her downfall which in turn lead to the Saxon's rise in power" - WHATEVER.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

if the Doctor hadn't choosen 1913, would all those people have died?

Yeah, but even there, I have a really hard time blaming the Doctor for the devastation inflicted by the Family. They are responsible for their own crimes. The Doctor ended up in 1913 out of compassion, because he was trying to avoid bloodshed. It's tragic that the Family didn't give up, and followed him to inflict more pain on others, but it's not his fault that they chose to act so violently.

I can hold him a bit responsible for not thoroughly thinking through the situation; his blase attitude did result in him leading a group of homicidal aliens to a vulnerable human population. But again, he was trying to act out of kindness, and if his plan had worked no one would have died. I really just can't blame him for what the Family did. It would've been far worse if he'd caused those deaths out of selfishness or cruelty, but I give him a pretty big pass since he was acting out of compassion.

I also think that Joan was being pretty damn unfair by blaming it on the Doctor. He's saved this world more times than she can imagine, and she really doesn't know the whole situation. I don't blame her for lashing out; she was suffering at the time, and could barely look in the eyes of the alien who'd taken away than man she loved. So she struck out and got him to go away, but I don't think we're meant to take her statement as Truth; it's coming from a very (understandably) biased POV.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

The Doctor himself, of his own volition, only brought her up twice.

THNAK YOU! There's even a joke icon I've seen about how the Doctor brought up Rose again to Martha and she's had enough of it, and I'm like seriously when? You cannot win those arguments though, several times now I've been told that the Doctor did in fact bring up Rose constantly, and one person kept insisting that the Gridlock reference came from the Doctor and why on earth would Martha bring up Rose, that's just silly. So I ended up rewatching the scene just to pull out the exact quotes, and then they stopped replying to me at all after that...


When people say this, what they mean is "The Doctor never fucked Martha."

:nods: The Doctor was constantly saying thank you, hugging Martha, making comments like "Martha Jones, you are a star". Again with this, I've had someone insist that the Doctor never said thank you in Family Of Blood *blinks and rewatches hug scene*

Martha's speech in that final scene was not about her feeling mistreated or underappreciated either, however fandom generally perceives it. It was about the comparison with her friend who kept waiting around for someone to fall in love with her, and Martha realising it was time to stop putting herself through that. Why on earth should the Doctor apologise for not falling in love, or for being attracted to blondes? Romantic love isn't about deserving that love because of how loyal you are, it's by and large a chemical response to another person. The Doctor did like Martha and care about her as a friend, but it wasn't like it was with Rose, and Martha finally accepted that it was just too hard to be around him when she was waiting on these secret hopes. There wasn't much the Doctor could say to that, and they both knew it. To expect the Doctor to kiss Martha's feet in that scene apologising, or to take offense if he ever kisses or holds a companions hand again, simply isn't fair. I've even seen CAPSLOCK anger about Astrid getting kisses twice, and Martha only getting the genetic transfer kiss, even though she was loyal to the Doctor for months. Er I didn't know people are obliged to kiss someone who is in love with them???

People seem to forget that the Doctor is a Time Lord, and has always behaved differently from us, when they want to pull out these moments of the Doctor not treating Martha with enough human sensitivity. Don't even get me started on "he'd never treat Rose like that" whines when it comes to stuff like the Doctor being thoughtless enough to invite Joan along, and how unappreciative that is of Martha. Did people actually watch GITF?

The other thing that's annoying me today: the fact that every time Doctor Who shows up on Fandom Wank, it turns into a big Rose-bashing extravaganza. It's just an excuse for a bunch of ugly grudgewank from bitter Martha fans

Totally. Both sides are as bad as each other frankly, but people want to put it all on the Rose fans which gets tiresome. It's strange because I've seen many Martha fans act exactly in the way that they once mocked Rose fans. A hugely O/T response to their favoured companion leaving, comments on how the Doctor isn't fit to lick her books and Martha pwns everyone by far, should be the next Doctor, have her own show. And it's like come on, did you not once make fun of Rose fans for being all about Rose and putting you off the character, did you not tell them the whole point of the show is that the next companion comes along in a minute? And the same people who hated the Doctor putting Rose on a pedestal and shouted Mary-Sue, then freak out when the Doctor fails to be swept off his feet by Martha.

But fandom wank really does seem obsessed with "batchippers". Even in the wank which featured people having frankly terrifying responses to the Rose spoiler news, talking of wanting to kill the writers in the most sadistic and disturbing detail, or yelling in all caps that RTD is a bigot that should get fucked up the ass with a rusty pole, still the most attention on the wank seemed to focus on Rose fans feeling vindicated and having a nah nah moment.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Dude. I just re-watched HN/FoB and he thanks Martha twice! Once in the instructional video and once at the end with a big hug. Not to mention the whole "trusting her with his life" thing implies that he had a lot of respect for her intelligence and resourcefulness... he just wasn't in love with her. That's it! The only "awful" thing he ever did was not fall in love!

I'm totally with you about the nature of romantic love. It's not something you can force or than anyone can *owe* to another person. Part of Martha's story was her growing to accept that romance with the Doctor just wasn't going to happen, and that she needed to move on. It's too bad her fans can't do the same.

Yeah, Fandom Wank seems to be dominated by a few really vocal and bitter Martha fans. I'm sure both sides do wanky things, but it's just annoying how they only mock the Rose side, and then do wanky things themselves in the FW comments. It's like you'd need Fandom Wank-Wank to mock them. It's too bad because 99% of the time I love FW.

When I first watched the series, I really didn't feel that strongly about Rose and Martha. I though Piper is a more compelling actress and that Rose was a more developed character, but I honestly didn't care much either way. Then I came into fandom and for the first time I understand the whole "the fans made me hate the character!" thing. Every time I see Martha fans making these nasty wanky arguments, I resent the character a little bit more.

[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

Here from who_daily and I just want to say that I love this and I totally agree.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'm glad you liked it.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

When people say this, what they mean is "The Doctor never fucked Martha." Which is a ship-war argument and is completely immune to logic.

I will now have a fair amount of sex with you.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Haha, thanks.

[fahrbotdrusilla]

The Doctor brought up Rose constantly throughout season three.

The Doctor brought her up twice as you said, but his distance from Martha fed into *her* belief that she was on his mind constantly. Which led to all of the other times Rose was mentioned. And even that was over done if you take old skool who into consideration.

When people say this, what they mean is "The Doctor never fucked Martha." Which is a ship-war argument and is completely immune to logic.

Well, no. He never 'fucked' Rose either.

The Doctor really thinks he's a god, his behavior is unacceptably arrogant, and he needs to be brought down.

I don't think Ten thinks he's god (I don't think Nine, Ten or the Doctor in general would *want* to be seen as a god), but I do think RTD is writing him that way. There was even a recent interview where he said the Doctor was A Proper Saviour and could be the second coming.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

And even that was over done if you take old skool who into consideration.

Yep. Which is why I sure am glad that television has evolved and we have nice things like emotional continuity now. ;)

[stoplookingup.livejournal.com]

Yup. That was all rant.

[thehornedgod.livejournal.com]

Heh. This is a marvellous rant full of truth.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks!