rusty_halo (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
rusty_halo) wrote2008-01-25 06:59 pm
rusty_halo) wrote2008-01-25 06:59 pm
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Since I haven't gotten my rant on in quite a while: Doctor Who fandom memes that piss me off
I hate getting into arguments, but Doctor Who fandom is driving me fucking insane. So I'm going to rant here on my own journal, where no one has to see it if they don't want to.
Doctor Who fandom memes, and why they piss me off.
The Doctor was horribly mean to poor Harriet Jones.
Harriet Jones shot a retreating enemy in the back. She annihilated an entire society, including those who hadn't been fighting. Can you imagine if this was common practice? War would never end until one side had been completely destroyed; no one would ever surrender because they'd know they'd just get killed anyway.
Sure, it's easy for a human audience to shrug it off and say, "Well, they were just aliens," but the Doctor isn't human. We're all aliens to him and he saw one alien species behaving badly to another, and he did what he always does: put a stop to it. That's who the Doctor is, someone who sees injustice and acts to end it.
I like and sympathize with Harriet Jones, but she did something wrong, and she paid the price.
If you want to complain that the Doctor has no right to go interfering in alien societies, well, go ahead, but I don't see why you even watch the show, because all the Doctor does is interfere in alien societies.
People also like to complain that the Master's election as Prime Minister was a direct result of the Doctor bringing down Harriet Jones. It's a nice irony, but come on. If the Doctor could bring Jones down with six words, you really think the Master couldn't with fifteen satellites?
The Doctor and Rose deserved to be torn apart in "Doomsday" because of their callous behavior in previous episodes.
Oh, honestly. They're in love, they've been through harrowing events and come out stronger, they're traveling around the universe having adventures, and they're giddy and happy to be together. And, being that one of them is the Doctor, they run into trouble. What do they do?
A) Ignore the trouble and go off somewhere else to have more giddy fun.
B) Fix the trouble, help whoever they can, and continue to enjoy themselves while they do it.
C) Realize that the universe is a terrible awful place, and mope around being miserable for an entire season.
A) would be the callous response that a lot of fandom seems to think they did. B) would be the simultaneously compassionate and fun response they actually chose. C) would be the extremely depressing response that a lot of fandom wishes they'd chosen.
I have no problem with the Doctor and Rose being happy together and refusing to hide it. They don't have to help anyone, but they choose to. When someone saves your life, are you going to complain that they're not taking the situation seriously enough, or are you just going to be fucking glad that someone saved your life?
Seriously. They deserve all the fun they can get. The Doctor has saved the universe more times that I can count, and Rose did her own heart-of-the-TARDIS-absorbing universe-saving thing very recently too. This is the first happiness the Doctor's felt since he lost Gallifrey, and I can't believe there are bitter fans begrudging it because... what? They don't like the 'ship? They want everyone to be grim and miserable all the time? They've got some kind of Puritan idea that happiness must be punished?
As for "They brought about their own destruction," please. Queen Victoria brought about their destruction by being close-minded and afraid of anything beyond her own understanding. Torchwood brought about their destruction by being stupid and power hungry. The Doctor and Rose didn't do anything wrong. If they hadn't been there, Victoria would have been bitten and Britain would be ruled by werewolves. (LOL.) Instead, the Doctor and Rose showed up and saved the country, and what did they get? Banished. Torchwood resulted, and Torchwood tore them apart, which is tragic, and ironic, but it's certainly not their fault.
The Doctor brought up Rose constantly throughout season three.
He really didn't. He brought up Rose two times at the very beginning of the season, when he was still reeling from having lost her. Once in "Smith and Jones" and once in "The Shakespeare Code," the first two episodes.
He also said her name when other people asked about her--Donna in "The Runaway Bride" and Jack in "Utopia." Then the Master brought her up in "Last of the Time Lords," Martha brought her up in "Gridlock," and John Smith drew her in "Human Nature." So the show certainly didn't forget about her, but neither was the Doctor constantly yacking about her. The Doctor himself, of his own volition, only brought her up twice.
And why shouldn't she be mentioned? She was the first person the Doctor truly connected with since the Time War. Whether you like it or not, she had a huge impact on his life, and it would be ridiculous for the show to brush it off and pretend she wasn't important.
The Doctor never appreciated Martha.
Oh, except all those times he said "Thank you" and told her how much he appreciated her.
When people say this, what they mean is "The Doctor never fucked Martha." Which is a ship-war argument and is completely immune to logic.
The Doctor brings death and destruction wherever he goes, and leaves disaster behind him for others to clean up.
Oh, now this one is just silly. The Doctor goes where there is already (about to be) death and destruction, finds himself in the middle of it, and does what he can to help. It's a simple matter of cause and effect. The Doctor doesn't cause the tragedy; he just finds himself in bad situations and makes them better than they would've been without him. This doesn't stop people who only see a small part of the picture from assuming that the Doctor must be responsible, but they're just plain wrong.
As for leaving a mess behind--well, the mess was going to be there anyway. He's already taken the time to help the situation, right whatever wrong was going on; why should this imply an additional obligation to stick around and rebuild? It's not his place to go around rebuilding everyone else's societies anyway, and part of what the Doctor does is teach others how to help themselves. That would hardly work if he just hovered around forever doing everything for them.
The Doctor really thinks he's a god, his behavior is unacceptably arrogant, and he needs to be brought down.
Oh my god, what show are these people watching? He knows perfectly well that he isn't a god. He knew it when Rose was torn away from him forever. He knew it when he couldn't bring Astrid back. He knew it when he had to kill his entire species in order to save the universe. Seriously, if he were a god, he'd have been able to stop these horrible things from happening.
But what makes him the Doctor is that he keeps trying anyway. He's not a god, but in nearly every situation he encounters, he's the most powerful being in the room. This isn't arrogance; it's fact. He accepts that (to paraphrase Peter Parker's Uncle Ben) this power comes with responsibility. He acts to the best of his ability, even though he's not perfect, because he knows it's better to do something than to do nothing. How can you complain about arrogance when it manifests as "trying to save as many people as possible"?
Sometimes he screws up. Sometimes he does everything he possibly can but it's still not enough. Just about every time, though, he helps. He makes the situation better than it would have been without him. He can't save everyone on the Titanic, but he saves a few passengers and, oh yeah, the entire Earth. Do people really think the situation would have been better if the Doctor hadn't "arrogantly" tried to help? Because we'd all be dead if he hadn't.
As far as him deserving to be brought down? No, he doesn't deserve it. But he gets brought down anyway, or did you miss the look on his face when Astrid turned into stardust? When he realized Rose was gone forever? When the Master died in his arms? Every time he thinks of Gallifrey?
***
The other thing that's annoying me today: the fact that every time Doctor Who shows up on Fandom Wank, it turns into a big Rose-bashing extravaganza. It's just an excuse for a bunch of ugly grudgewank from bitter Martha fans, who are far more wanky than those they're mocking.
***
(Comments of whatever sort are fine, but as this is more of a rant than a reasoned argument meant to convince others, I'll probably not respond to anything too argumentative.)
[Cross-posted to InsaneJournal]
Doctor Who fandom memes, and why they piss me off.
The Doctor was horribly mean to poor Harriet Jones.
Harriet Jones shot a retreating enemy in the back. She annihilated an entire society, including those who hadn't been fighting. Can you imagine if this was common practice? War would never end until one side had been completely destroyed; no one would ever surrender because they'd know they'd just get killed anyway.
Sure, it's easy for a human audience to shrug it off and say, "Well, they were just aliens," but the Doctor isn't human. We're all aliens to him and he saw one alien species behaving badly to another, and he did what he always does: put a stop to it. That's who the Doctor is, someone who sees injustice and acts to end it.
I like and sympathize with Harriet Jones, but she did something wrong, and she paid the price.
If you want to complain that the Doctor has no right to go interfering in alien societies, well, go ahead, but I don't see why you even watch the show, because all the Doctor does is interfere in alien societies.
People also like to complain that the Master's election as Prime Minister was a direct result of the Doctor bringing down Harriet Jones. It's a nice irony, but come on. If the Doctor could bring Jones down with six words, you really think the Master couldn't with fifteen satellites?
The Doctor and Rose deserved to be torn apart in "Doomsday" because of their callous behavior in previous episodes.
Oh, honestly. They're in love, they've been through harrowing events and come out stronger, they're traveling around the universe having adventures, and they're giddy and happy to be together. And, being that one of them is the Doctor, they run into trouble. What do they do?
A) Ignore the trouble and go off somewhere else to have more giddy fun.
B) Fix the trouble, help whoever they can, and continue to enjoy themselves while they do it.
C) Realize that the universe is a terrible awful place, and mope around being miserable for an entire season.
A) would be the callous response that a lot of fandom seems to think they did. B) would be the simultaneously compassionate and fun response they actually chose. C) would be the extremely depressing response that a lot of fandom wishes they'd chosen.
I have no problem with the Doctor and Rose being happy together and refusing to hide it. They don't have to help anyone, but they choose to. When someone saves your life, are you going to complain that they're not taking the situation seriously enough, or are you just going to be fucking glad that someone saved your life?
Seriously. They deserve all the fun they can get. The Doctor has saved the universe more times that I can count, and Rose did her own heart-of-the-TARDIS-absorbing universe-saving thing very recently too. This is the first happiness the Doctor's felt since he lost Gallifrey, and I can't believe there are bitter fans begrudging it because... what? They don't like the 'ship? They want everyone to be grim and miserable all the time? They've got some kind of Puritan idea that happiness must be punished?
As for "They brought about their own destruction," please. Queen Victoria brought about their destruction by being close-minded and afraid of anything beyond her own understanding. Torchwood brought about their destruction by being stupid and power hungry. The Doctor and Rose didn't do anything wrong. If they hadn't been there, Victoria would have been bitten and Britain would be ruled by werewolves. (LOL.) Instead, the Doctor and Rose showed up and saved the country, and what did they get? Banished. Torchwood resulted, and Torchwood tore them apart, which is tragic, and ironic, but it's certainly not their fault.
The Doctor brought up Rose constantly throughout season three.
He really didn't. He brought up Rose two times at the very beginning of the season, when he was still reeling from having lost her. Once in "Smith and Jones" and once in "The Shakespeare Code," the first two episodes.
He also said her name when other people asked about her--Donna in "The Runaway Bride" and Jack in "Utopia." Then the Master brought her up in "Last of the Time Lords," Martha brought her up in "Gridlock," and John Smith drew her in "Human Nature." So the show certainly didn't forget about her, but neither was the Doctor constantly yacking about her. The Doctor himself, of his own volition, only brought her up twice.
And why shouldn't she be mentioned? She was the first person the Doctor truly connected with since the Time War. Whether you like it or not, she had a huge impact on his life, and it would be ridiculous for the show to brush it off and pretend she wasn't important.
The Doctor never appreciated Martha.
Oh, except all those times he said "Thank you" and told her how much he appreciated her.
When people say this, what they mean is "The Doctor never fucked Martha." Which is a ship-war argument and is completely immune to logic.
The Doctor brings death and destruction wherever he goes, and leaves disaster behind him for others to clean up.
Oh, now this one is just silly. The Doctor goes where there is already (about to be) death and destruction, finds himself in the middle of it, and does what he can to help. It's a simple matter of cause and effect. The Doctor doesn't cause the tragedy; he just finds himself in bad situations and makes them better than they would've been without him. This doesn't stop people who only see a small part of the picture from assuming that the Doctor must be responsible, but they're just plain wrong.
As for leaving a mess behind--well, the mess was going to be there anyway. He's already taken the time to help the situation, right whatever wrong was going on; why should this imply an additional obligation to stick around and rebuild? It's not his place to go around rebuilding everyone else's societies anyway, and part of what the Doctor does is teach others how to help themselves. That would hardly work if he just hovered around forever doing everything for them.
The Doctor really thinks he's a god, his behavior is unacceptably arrogant, and he needs to be brought down.
Oh my god, what show are these people watching? He knows perfectly well that he isn't a god. He knew it when Rose was torn away from him forever. He knew it when he couldn't bring Astrid back. He knew it when he had to kill his entire species in order to save the universe. Seriously, if he were a god, he'd have been able to stop these horrible things from happening.
But what makes him the Doctor is that he keeps trying anyway. He's not a god, but in nearly every situation he encounters, he's the most powerful being in the room. This isn't arrogance; it's fact. He accepts that (to paraphrase Peter Parker's Uncle Ben) this power comes with responsibility. He acts to the best of his ability, even though he's not perfect, because he knows it's better to do something than to do nothing. How can you complain about arrogance when it manifests as "trying to save as many people as possible"?
Sometimes he screws up. Sometimes he does everything he possibly can but it's still not enough. Just about every time, though, he helps. He makes the situation better than it would have been without him. He can't save everyone on the Titanic, but he saves a few passengers and, oh yeah, the entire Earth. Do people really think the situation would have been better if the Doctor hadn't "arrogantly" tried to help? Because we'd all be dead if he hadn't.
As far as him deserving to be brought down? No, he doesn't deserve it. But he gets brought down anyway, or did you miss the look on his face when Astrid turned into stardust? When he realized Rose was gone forever? When the Master died in his arms? Every time he thinks of Gallifrey?
***
The other thing that's annoying me today: the fact that every time Doctor Who shows up on Fandom Wank, it turns into a big Rose-bashing extravaganza. It's just an excuse for a bunch of ugly grudgewank from bitter Martha fans, who are far more wanky than those they're mocking.
***
(Comments of whatever sort are fine, but as this is more of a rant than a reasoned argument meant to convince others, I'll probably not respond to anything too argumentative.)
[Cross-posted to InsaneJournal]
no subject
No, I don't think the Doctor was horribly mean to Harriet Jones. I do think he was irresponsible. While he doesn't think he is a god, he does believe himself to be a higher authority (as he states in New Earth) and he does not like being crossed when it comes to the big stuff. Whether Harriet Jones had a right to shoot the Sycorax out of the sky is debatable, but the Doctor who has preached against changing time lines again and again, took down "The Golden Age of Britain" because he didn't like her actions. That was a deliberate decision on his part which had consequences, one of which there was a power vaccuum that was taken advantage of by The Master. Would the Master still have wreaked havoc and tried to destroy the world? Hell, yeah. But, just as the events of "Bad Wolf" are a consequence of "The Long Game" and, yes, to an extent "Doomsday" is a result of "Tooth & Claw", the Master's ascension to that particular place is a result of "The Christmas Invasion."
In fact, I think that's one thing that New Who *has* done exceptionally well: made the Doctor fallible and shown that there are consequences. Yes, he does a tremendous amount of good but everything has a cost. And while it isn't his job, as you say, to stick around and play clean-up, I'd think he'd have some sort of obligation to ensure that he didn't make things worse. There is, of course, the issue of free will but I think his actions in TCI come off as a bit arrogant, which totally fits in with his "I'm that kind of man" characterization.
As far as Rose deserving to be ripped into an alternate world because of their hubris? I agree with you. I don't think she deserved it. But on the flip side, T&C was the one episode where I thought Rose was extremely OOC. She has always been the Doctor's compassion, the heart where he was logic. Her inappropriate quips in front of the Queen, while Lady Isobel was standing right next to her were really in poor taste and jarring for the character. There was a woman whose husband had just sacrificed himself to save the three of them and Rose and the Doctor are making childish jokes? I'll never forgive the writers for that one because that's *not* the Rose I knew.
As for the Rose and Martha stuff - Yes. ITA. Any reasonable debate on their characterization has been lost in the fire of ship wars and there's no sense even trying. That road is long and bitter, my friend.
I think I can see the nuggets of where fandom is coming up with the assumptions that are making you nuts, but with most things fannish, there are some people who push it to the wall.
And since this isn't said in Who fandom nearly enough: YMMV. ;)
edited because "infallible" and "fallible" are really two entirely different concepts. ;)
no subject
I almost always see fandom through the eyes of one character, who I adore completely and of whom I can forgive anything. Anything s/he does wrong just makes me love him/her more. (For example: "Methos killed tens of thousands of people once? Awesome!")
I agree that the Doctor sees himself as a higher authority... I just think he's right. He *is* usually the most powerful person in the room. He's the smartest and he understands more than anyone else, and he has more ability to act and to change things than anyone else. I'm glad that he acts, even if he makes mistakes, because I think it's better to try to stop wrongdoing than to sit back and claim that it's not your place.
He changes time lines every time he acts, so I don't see how stopping Harriet Jones was different from any of the other wrongdoing that he regularly stops. It just looks different to us because she's human, but to him, everyone's an alien, and he stops wrongdoing regardless. (Of course, when it comes to his own species he's totally biased, but I love that too. Doctor/Master FTW.)
I'd think he'd have some sort of obligation to ensure that he didn't make things worse.
Has he ever really made things worse? (In the new series; I haven't seen the old.) As far as I can tell, even when he's left situations less than perfect, his presence stopped an even greater evil from occurring. And I just don't think it's his responsibility to pick up the pieces for everyone else; if he leaves and people screw up again, that's their fault.
I don't see Rose's behavior in T&C as inappropriate. Everyone would've died if she and the Doctor hadn't shown up and helped. She was a little irreverent, but that's part of what I love about her and the Doctor--that they genuinely enjoyed themselves, instead of pretty much every other show where characters are constantly suffering the Epic Burden of having awesome adventures and exciting lives. I certainly don't think it's anything they needed to be punished for.
But, yeah. Totally YMMV.
no subject
Absolutely. I still have the battle scars to remind me of that lesson. I love debating and discussing meta but I'm not going to change anyone's opinion and no one is going to change mine. And that's cool. Endless debates on "you're doing it wrong" are wearying and pointless. Agreeing to disagree is an art that too often is lost in fandom. (There is also the gentle art of knowing who on your flist you can say "What the hell are you smoking?" and laugh when they say "Bitch, please, it's the good stuff and you should get some." And those for whom fandom is Serious Business.)
Speaking of which, I'm probably responsible for bring the wankapocalypse to your lj (other than the fact you are smoking the crack *g*) I added you to the
(I'm also going to second the "State of Play" rec..I saw bits and pieces of it before Simm!Master and it rocked)
no subject
So it is kind of startling to realize, oh yeah, there are people out there who will *hate* you for your opinion about fiction. I just kind of feel sorry for them, though, because fandom can't be any fun at all if you freak out anytime someone's opinion differs. Fandom is entirely *about* differing opinions.
I admit, I can understand where it comes from. When I first got here I took things *way* too seriously. Like "You're an Angel fan? Obviously you're crazy and I don't want to talk to you." Then, y'know, I went to conventions and met Angel fans who were awesome, and realized that your fannish preferences actually have very little relation to whether or not you'll get along in real life. And certainly your taste in fictional characters is not an accurate reflection of your real-life morality.
I don't mind being on the
"State of Play"... okay, obviously I'm going to have to see this ASAP. The more John Simm in my life, the better.