rusty_halo | Soul Purpose

Yes, Mr. Fury, I get it. I give in now. Spike is a nasty sexist pig who objectifies women, and I'm just a delusional hormone-driven fool for ever liking him in the first place. I'll go burn my Spike memorabilia in effigy now. Thank you so much for enlightening me.

*sigh*

*misses Jane Espenson*

*is completely over this show and this character*

Well, except the Spike/Lindsey hoyay was nice.

Back before Spike was with Buffy, the writers didn't feel the need to insert some little "Look! Spike objectifies women! Spike's a bad boy! Spike's a creep!" thing into every single episode. Now? His relationship with Buffy is *over*, but it's like Fury's still trying to hammer it into every single Spike fan's head that they were *wrong*, that Spuffy was *wrong*, that Spike is *wrong*.

Whatever. My Spike died in "Grave," and Fury's retcons are not going to ruin my love for that character. This Spike? Isn't the same guy--he's been completely ruined by poor writing, inconsistent characterization, conflicting writers' agendas, poor acting ... the list goes on. I really couldn't care less about him at this point.

This episode had some nice hints that they might explore the complexity of reality, the grey areas of life, the idea that everything doesn't always come down to black and white in the end. Except I saw BtVS season six, so I already know they'll botch it. I'm not going to waste my time and effort investing in a story that I've already seen ME ruin once.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I see Spike's behaviour to the woman in the alley as a combination of fighting against whatever Angel/Lindsey/TPTB/Wolfram & Hart/Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all are pushing on Spike ... or whatever he thinks they're pushing on him ... and the textual need to distinguish between Angel and Spike in a way that makes sense for both characters.

Having two souled, save-the-world type vampires on AtS and having to give them both meaningful characters arcs really pushes the writers up against the wall. Even if they're inclined to treat Spike sympathetically - and I'm not convinced they are, but what the hell ... benefit of the doubt and all - there are only so many places they can go. And one of the most obvious paths is to have one souled vampire desire the Champion status (*puke* I know, but they started it), and the other one to hate it and rebel against it.

Unfortunately, the place I think they're going to end up does not look good for Spike. I'm worried they're headed to good old Fundamental Duality Land where Angel is Good but occasionally has impulses to be Bad, whereas Spike is occasionally, accidentally Good despite being essentially Bad at heart. Or soul. Or whatever other bit ME decides is the home of the metaphysical this week. Although I'm quite sure I know which body parts Fury associates most with Spike ... the arse and the dick.

So I'm pretty much in the same boat with you, Laura ... excited about the possibility of exploring intriguing grey areas, but fairly certain that ME will drop the ball again.

I agree they're trying to distinuguish the two characters, but so far I've seen it as being a duality of surface and substance.

Spike is rude, crude, and occasionally lewd, but faced with a moral choice, Spike has unvaryingly done the right thing this season, from the big stuff like refusing to betray Angel or Fred to save his own skin, to the little stuff like being nice (or as nice as Spike gets) to Harmony once he actually gets it through his thick skull that he's hurt her--and he doesn't even like Harmony.

Angel is polite and cultured and respectful, but he's running an evil law firm and wracked by doubt and apathy. Angel has done many morally questionable things this season, killing humans, arranging for the eternal torture of an enemy, etc. And he has not, on the whole, done them in the pursuit of a greater good, as Wes and Gunn are doing' Angel does them because hurting an enemy makes him feel better for a moment.

Angel's dreams in 5.10 reveal, I think, that he knows darn well that whatever he may accuse Spike of, Spike is NOT just out for himself, and hasn't been for quite some time. Angel wants a destiny. Spike wants a purpose.

Angel wants a destiny. Spike wants a purpose.

I like your interpretation. Really.

But I am *never* on the same page as the ME writers, so it's a pretty sure bet that whatever I think represents something positive about Spike, ME thinks it's proof that he's inferior. So I'm hesitant to invest in any positive interpretation of his behavior, knowing that ME will use it later to prove how supposedly wrong Spike is.

I so want to believe you, because not only is this a fabbo interpretation of season 5 so far, but it's a subtle, complex, meaningful arc that could develop between Spike and Angel over many seasons and draw a lot of the loose threads of the BtVS/AtS mythos together. (ie: WTF is a soul anyway?)

I just don't have any faith in ME. Yes, Spike has done a lot of good things (wrapped up in the mad, bad and dangerous to know Spike package), and Angel has done a lot of bad things (wrapped up in the noble Champion package), but ME trod the same path with Xander in BtVS ... Xander did a lot of really horrible things to a lot of people over 7 years, but he was still the hero, still the good guy, and the worst consequence he ever had to face was a bit of self-pity. In the final analysis it won't matter what Spike does because, unless something drastic happens, ME has to cast Spike as a villain in some form or another because he's there as a contrast to characters like Angel, Xander and Buffy ... and they are the heroes by default. This is the ultimate price we pay for having Spike as a secondary character.

It all has an eerie parallel to long-standing debates about Christian salvation ... the profession of faith vs. good deeds aspect. Some say salvation (redemption, belonging, acceptance, ticket to Buffyland) is gained entirely through accepting JC as personal saviour (having The Soul, regardless of what you do with it), while others think this isn't enough and salvation depends on what you do with The Soul (loyalty, suffering, sacrifice, working with the Scoobies all summer even when Buffyland is permanently shut down). ME seems firmly in the first camp, and I try not to get my hopes up that they will change.

Unfortunately, the place I think they're going to end up does not look good for Spike. I'm worried they're headed to good old Fundamental Duality Land where Angel is Good but occasionally has impulses to be Bad, whereas Spike is occasionally, accidentally Good despite being essentially Bad at heart. Or soul. Or whatever other bit ME decides is the home of the metaphysical this week. Although I'm quite sure I know which body parts Fury associates most with Spike ... the arse and the dick.

That's it in a nutshell. *sigh*

ME think they're so clever and progressive, but underneath, their themes are painfully simplistic (and become more so with every new bit of influence that David Fury gets). I'm sick of it. There's other entertainment out there that allows for far more complex themes; that's what I'm on the lookout for now.

I think the difference between us is that I gave up on ME a bit earlier than you did, and therefore haven't looked to BtVS and AtS in and of themselves for deep and meaningful exploration of the issues they raise. (And actual resolution of these issues!) I see the shows more as springboards for the far richer world of fic, so I can still enjoy them.

I was wondering if some of your negative experiences at cons over the summer - especially at Moonlight Rising - and JM's bizarro interpretations of Spike (aka 'toeing the company line') have affected your enjoyment of the show/s and Spike, in addition to the Spike problems on AtS 5.

Hmm... Interesting ideas.

After I wrote my reply, I wished I'd added a note that fanfic is included in the "entertainment that explores much more complex themes." It's definitely the main reason why I haven't left the fandom entirely already.

I do, definitely, see the shows as springboards for fic. But I also find the themes in the shows increasingly repulsive, and if I'm repulsed by a story, I'm less likely to want to see it explored in fic. My favorite fic is based in/around S5 and some S6; I'm not at all fond of S7 or AtS S5 fic unless done exceptionally well.

The biggest thing influencing my (lack of) enjoyment of the show is the fact that Spike got a soul and became unrecognizable to me. Second to that is probably the disgusting themes that ME makes prominent in their stories, which is closely tied to the problems I have with Spike getting a soul. And the writers' (and actors') interviews, expressing how they wanted to show these themes, does reduce my enjoyment even more, because once they explain it, I can see many of the ways they specifically tried to push a certain idea.

I don't think JM is toeing the company line, btw; I think he's genuinely repulsed by Spike's behavior. (I also think the guy has a major madonna/whore complex, but it's not really my place to psychoanalyze his thought processes). But what he says (and he's certainly much closer to the writers than we are, though of course not always correct--witness his confusion about the soul) allows me to see more of what the writers were going for. And every bit more that I see, the more repulsed that I get.

And, of course, JM (plus Vulkon's unethical business practices) completely put me off celebrity conventions. I'd be quite happy never to hear JM speak again.

Soul Purpose

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