Soul Purpose

[rusty_halo]

Yes, Mr. Fury, I get it. I give in now. Spike is a nasty sexist pig who objectifies women, and I'm just a delusional hormone-driven fool for ever liking him in the first place. I'll go burn my Spike memorabilia in effigy now. Thank you so much for enlightening me.

*sigh*

*misses Jane Espenson*

*is completely over this show and this character*

Well, except the Spike/Lindsey hoyay was nice.

Back before Spike was with Buffy, the writers didn't feel the need to insert some little "Look! Spike objectifies women! Spike's a bad boy! Spike's a creep!" thing into every single episode. Now? His relationship with Buffy is *over*, but it's like Fury's still trying to hammer it into every single Spike fan's head that they were *wrong*, that Spuffy was *wrong*, that Spike is *wrong*.

Whatever. My Spike died in "Grave," and Fury's retcons are not going to ruin my love for that character. This Spike? Isn't the same guy--he's been completely ruined by poor writing, inconsistent characterization, conflicting writers' agendas, poor acting ... the list goes on. I really couldn't care less about him at this point.

This episode had some nice hints that they might explore the complexity of reality, the grey areas of life, the idea that everything doesn't always come down to black and white in the end. Except I saw BtVS season six, so I already know they'll botch it. I'm not going to waste my time and effort investing in a story that I've already seen ME ruin once.

Comments

[circe-tigana.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Let's ignore Angel and go see ROTK together :)

mmmm...hobbits.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Sounds good to me. :)

Except, um, I don't like LotR. Oh well.

[circe-tigana.livejournal.com]

We'll go drinking instead ;)

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

I didn't see Spike objectifying women, there. Cause he was at a strip club? You know, those women make a really good living. (Yeah, there's somebody being exploited in strip clubs. But it ain't the dancers.)

I loved his response to the chicklet in the alley. Go, Spike with the truth-speaking. ;) I saw Spike struggling with what the hell he's doing back in the world, and who he is. I'm not a big fan of Fury's version of Spike, but I thought he came off pretty well.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

It's the oogling women in the strip club, the way he called that woman a "cow"--each on its own might not matter, but Fury puts these little things into every episode:

The way Spike treats Harmony as an sexual object and completely ignores her feelings. The way he knocks her out and doesn't even bother checking to see if she's okay. All the lines about how every bit of good Spike did was to get into Buffy's pants (in this episode, in "Destiny"--over and over, anywhere that Fury can squeeze it in. 'Cause I'm sure, y'know, when Spike was letting Glory dig her finger into his chest in "Intervention," with no expectation of being rescued, all he was really thinking about was getting into the pants of a Buffy who, to his knowledge, would never even know about his resistance even if he did survive.) The way Spike speaks possessively toward Buffy, so that they can make Angel look as if he respected her as a person while Spike just wanted to possess her, completely ignoring how it was Angel's patriarchal condescending decision to leave her in the first place. (For example: Spike: "You can't keep her from me!" Angel: "She's not mine to keep... or yours." Yes, now Angel is the mature one when it comes to respecting Buffy's choices. Just forget the whole "leaving her for her own good" thing.)

I like truth-teller Spike and I like bad-boy Spike, but there's a line between that and misogynist Spike. Fury makes sure to push a little farther across that line every episode.

In the past, we had good arguments about why Spike wasn't a misogynist, that he respected and valued women, treated them as equals, trusted them to make their own decisions (Harmony being the exception driven by his anger at women after being left by Drusilla, not the rule)--so much early S/B fic is based on contrasting this with Angel and Riley's possessive attitude toward Buffy.

Now, we don't really have that argument anymore. We used to, IMO, but since Fury controls canon, he's basically stacking the deck against us. If it was fic, I'd call it anti-Spike agenda fic and stop reading it. Without Jane Espenson to balance it out, Fury has free run to ruin Spike's character however he wants. He's been insisting for years that Spike's a misogynist, and now he's got his chance to prove it.

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

It's the oogling women in the strip club

Why is that objectifying? ::does not get what's wrong with appreciating sexual displays::

The way Spike treats Harmony as an sexual object and completely ignores her feelings. The way he knocks her out and doesn't even bother checking to see if she's okay.

I look on Spike's interaction with Harmony as being indicative of his bias against folks less intelligent than himself. His 'working class' crap aside, Spike's a snob. A different kind of snob than Angel, but a snob, still.

Spike: "You can't keep her from me!" Angel: "She's not mine to keep... or yours."

That was just Angel being pissy.

In the past, we had good arguments about why Spike wasn't a misogynist, that he respected and valued women, treated them as equals

I still see that. Look at how Spike interacted with Fred, or with Eve. But to whom he perceives as stupid? He's an ass. That's pretty consistent.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Eh, I disagree. The Spike of AtS S5 is, IMO, a misogynist. Lucky for me, he's not my Spike anyway.

[zyrya]

His 'working class' crap aside, Spike's a snob.

This makes perfect sense. Of course bourgeois Victorian William would have class issues, despite slumming it as Spike for the last century or so.

[rahirah]

I would point out in Spike's defense that once the clue-by-four penetrated in 5.9, he went out of his way to listen to Harm's troubles, and more than that, sit down with her and cheer her up. Spike may think she's a twit, and be inconsiderate of her feelings. But that really isn't the action of someone who objectifies her.

[rahirah]

Actually, it looked to me as if the only thing Spike was ogling with any real interest was his drink. That was a guy glumly going through the motions of a night on the town if ever I saw one.

[shadowlass.livejournal.com]

I'm always up for Fury-bashing, but this episode was written by Brent Fletcher.

However, I am confident that David Fury is responsible for every other bad thing that's happened in the last several years, including, but not limited to: Bush's election, the economy, and the headache I'm currently enjoying. Also, "Gone," which is probably a felony in some states.

Actually, I enjoyed tonight's episode, but I am on medication. See above, re: headache.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

this episode was written by Brent Fletcher.

Yes, I know, but Fury has made it quite clear that the other writers regard him as the "Spike expert." I have no doubt at all that he is the one who pushes for the portrayal of Spike as a misogynist.

[shadowlass.livejournal.com]

David Fury is regarded as a Spike expert?

I believe my mind is officially blown.

[marguerite-26.livejournal.com]

Spike is a nasty sexist pig who objectifies women,

I've gotta admit I didn't really see that. There is *something* about Spike on Angel that is off (lighting? directing? acting?) but I haven't been able to relate it back to lines or plot.

I see Spike treating women the same way he treats men, with an equal amount of disrespect - with the exception of Fred who he is obviously soft on. I actually think yelling at that women in the alley was really in character for him and that he would have done the same if it had been someone like Andrew he'd saved (assuming Andrew wore heels)

[zyrya]

I see Spike's behaviour to the woman in the alley as a combination of fighting against whatever Angel/Lindsey/TPTB/Wolfram & Hart/Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all are pushing on Spike ... or whatever he thinks they're pushing on him ... and the textual need to distinguish between Angel and Spike in a way that makes sense for both characters.

Having two souled, save-the-world type vampires on AtS and having to give them both meaningful characters arcs really pushes the writers up against the wall. Even if they're inclined to treat Spike sympathetically - and I'm not convinced they are, but what the hell ... benefit of the doubt and all - there are only so many places they can go. And one of the most obvious paths is to have one souled vampire desire the Champion status (*puke* I know, but they started it), and the other one to hate it and rebel against it.

Unfortunately, the place I think they're going to end up does not look good for Spike. I'm worried they're headed to good old Fundamental Duality Land where Angel is Good but occasionally has impulses to be Bad, whereas Spike is occasionally, accidentally Good despite being essentially Bad at heart. Or soul. Or whatever other bit ME decides is the home of the metaphysical this week. Although I'm quite sure I know which body parts Fury associates most with Spike ... the arse and the dick.

So I'm pretty much in the same boat with you, Laura ... excited about the possibility of exploring intriguing grey areas, but fairly certain that ME will drop the ball again.

[rahirah]

I agree they're trying to distinuguish the two characters, but so far I've seen it as being a duality of surface and substance.

Spike is rude, crude, and occasionally lewd, but faced with a moral choice, Spike has unvaryingly done the right thing this season, from the big stuff like refusing to betray Angel or Fred to save his own skin, to the little stuff like being nice (or as nice as Spike gets) to Harmony once he actually gets it through his thick skull that he's hurt her--and he doesn't even like Harmony.

Angel is polite and cultured and respectful, but he's running an evil law firm and wracked by doubt and apathy. Angel has done many morally questionable things this season, killing humans, arranging for the eternal torture of an enemy, etc. And he has not, on the whole, done them in the pursuit of a greater good, as Wes and Gunn are doing' Angel does them because hurting an enemy makes him feel better for a moment.

Angel's dreams in 5.10 reveal, I think, that he knows darn well that whatever he may accuse Spike of, Spike is NOT just out for himself, and hasn't been for quite some time. Angel wants a destiny. Spike wants a purpose.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Angel wants a destiny. Spike wants a purpose.

I like your interpretation. Really.

But I am *never* on the same page as the ME writers, so it's a pretty sure bet that whatever I think represents something positive about Spike, ME thinks it's proof that he's inferior. So I'm hesitant to invest in any positive interpretation of his behavior, knowing that ME will use it later to prove how supposedly wrong Spike is.

[zyrya]

I so want to believe you, because not only is this a fabbo interpretation of season 5 so far, but it's a subtle, complex, meaningful arc that could develop between Spike and Angel over many seasons and draw a lot of the loose threads of the BtVS/AtS mythos together. (ie: WTF is a soul anyway?)

I just don't have any faith in ME. Yes, Spike has done a lot of good things (wrapped up in the mad, bad and dangerous to know Spike package), and Angel has done a lot of bad things (wrapped up in the noble Champion package), but ME trod the same path with Xander in BtVS ... Xander did a lot of really horrible things to a lot of people over 7 years, but he was still the hero, still the good guy, and the worst consequence he ever had to face was a bit of self-pity. In the final analysis it won't matter what Spike does because, unless something drastic happens, ME has to cast Spike as a villain in some form or another because he's there as a contrast to characters like Angel, Xander and Buffy ... and they are the heroes by default. This is the ultimate price we pay for having Spike as a secondary character.

It all has an eerie parallel to long-standing debates about Christian salvation ... the profession of faith vs. good deeds aspect. Some say salvation (redemption, belonging, acceptance, ticket to Buffyland) is gained entirely through accepting JC as personal saviour (having The Soul, regardless of what you do with it), while others think this isn't enough and salvation depends on what you do with The Soul (loyalty, suffering, sacrifice, working with the Scoobies all summer even when Buffyland is permanently shut down). ME seems firmly in the first camp, and I try not to get my hopes up that they will change.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, the place I think they're going to end up does not look good for Spike. I'm worried they're headed to good old Fundamental Duality Land where Angel is Good but occasionally has impulses to be Bad, whereas Spike is occasionally, accidentally Good despite being essentially Bad at heart. Or soul. Or whatever other bit ME decides is the home of the metaphysical this week. Although I'm quite sure I know which body parts Fury associates most with Spike ... the arse and the dick.

That's it in a nutshell. *sigh*

ME think they're so clever and progressive, but underneath, their themes are painfully simplistic (and become more so with every new bit of influence that David Fury gets). I'm sick of it. There's other entertainment out there that allows for far more complex themes; that's what I'm on the lookout for now.

[zyrya]

I think the difference between us is that I gave up on ME a bit earlier than you did, and therefore haven't looked to BtVS and AtS in and of themselves for deep and meaningful exploration of the issues they raise. (And actual resolution of these issues!) I see the shows more as springboards for the far richer world of fic, so I can still enjoy them.

I was wondering if some of your negative experiences at cons over the summer - especially at Moonlight Rising - and JM's bizarro interpretations of Spike (aka 'toeing the company line') have affected your enjoyment of the show/s and Spike, in addition to the Spike problems on AtS 5.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Hmm... Interesting ideas.

After I wrote my reply, I wished I'd added a note that fanfic is included in the "entertainment that explores much more complex themes." It's definitely the main reason why I haven't left the fandom entirely already.

I do, definitely, see the shows as springboards for fic. But I also find the themes in the shows increasingly repulsive, and if I'm repulsed by a story, I'm less likely to want to see it explored in fic. My favorite fic is based in/around S5 and some S6; I'm not at all fond of S7 or AtS S5 fic unless done exceptionally well.

The biggest thing influencing my (lack of) enjoyment of the show is the fact that Spike got a soul and became unrecognizable to me. Second to that is probably the disgusting themes that ME makes prominent in their stories, which is closely tied to the problems I have with Spike getting a soul. And the writers' (and actors') interviews, expressing how they wanted to show these themes, does reduce my enjoyment even more, because once they explain it, I can see many of the ways they specifically tried to push a certain idea.

I don't think JM is toeing the company line, btw; I think he's genuinely repulsed by Spike's behavior. (I also think the guy has a major madonna/whore complex, but it's not really my place to psychoanalyze his thought processes). But what he says (and he's certainly much closer to the writers than we are, though of course not always correct--witness his confusion about the soul) allows me to see more of what the writers were going for. And every bit more that I see, the more repulsed that I get.

And, of course, JM (plus Vulkon's unethical business practices) completely put me off celebrity conventions. I'd be quite happy never to hear JM speak again.

Finally watched...

[chenanceou.livejournal.com]

Bleh.
I need a good show.

[diva-stardust.livejournal.com]

Back before Spike was with Buffy, the writers didn't feel the need to insert some little "Look! Spike objectifies women! Spike's a bad boy! Spike's a creep!" thing into every single episode. Now? His relationship with Buffy is *over*, but it's like Fury's still trying to hammer it into every single Spike fan's head that they were *wrong*, that Spuffy was *wrong*, that Spike is *wrong*.

I definitely agree with you about Spike. I was cringing and saying "Shut up, Spike." (which seems to happen a lot lately) in my head during that alley scene with the woman. It feels like they're doing everything over the top about his character.

I think My Spike died after he stopped being crazy. That's the last time I really liked or loved him even though there were *moments* (like the end scene in "Chosen") where I cared about him again.