rusty_halo | apparently i'm asking for half of my friends list to de-friend me, but this is how i feel

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apparently i'm asking for half of my friends list to de-friend me, but this is how i feel

I wasn't going to post this, but then when I was catching up with my FL I saw quite a few people trying to figure out why some people do or don't like Spike this season. And I saw a lot of assumptions that don't apply to me, like "If you don't like Spike this season, you must worship pure wussy saint Spike," or whatever. So I decided to post this anyway.

I know most people will disagree with this. I'm fine with disagreement in my LJ, but please be nice about it. People can interpret a story differently without that meaning that one or the other is "wrong." I have no problem with most of the people who are enjoying Spike this year. I'm glad you're finding something meaningful there. I'm just not. This is about explaining my reasons, not debunking anyone else's.

Original post:

I've been hoping since "Lessons" to like Spike again, and I've finally come to realize that my Spike really did die in "Grave." I don't like and am not interested in the guy who replaced him. (And, believe me, I really did try to like him, and tried to convince myself that I liked him, but honestly I just don't and I'm sick of trying to force myself to.)

Spike represented the grey area, the idea that morality is more complicated than black and white.
Now Spike is arguing for black and white and is against the idea of "grey."

Spike didn't have a soul, so every good thing he did was an achievement, immensely meaningful. His sympathy toward Dawn, kindness toward Tara, resistance to torture to protect Buffy and Dawn, decision to care for Dawn all summer ... all incredible achievements for a soulless creature.
Now, he has a soul, so all of this is pretty much expected of him. I wouldn't particularly applaud him for doing any of these--he should.

Before, when Spike made mistakes or did something selfish, I forgave him because he didn't have a soul to guide him. The fact that he was trying -- without any outside help or encouragement -- was what mattered.
Now, when he makes mistakes, I do blame him, because he has every reason to know better.

Spike didn't give a fuck about destiny or fate. He was the poster boy for free will.
Now Spike's story is all about destiny.

Spike broke boundaries, social and metaphysical. No soulless vampire was supposed to do good, no soulless vampire was supposed to love a slayer, no soulless vampire was supposed to babysit little girls. Spike did it, even though he was going against his own "nature," even though it resulted in social ostracization.
Now, Spike is ... a souled vampire fighting for good. I see no transgression here; he's just copying Angel.

Spike respected women. He saw them as his most powerful adversaries, he had no problem with Drusilla as the dominant one in their relationship, he adored Buffy's strength and wasn't threatened by it.
Now, he doesn't even tell Buffy he's back? He treats all women (except Fred) like stupid sex objects and completely disregards their thoughts and feelings? The writers are going out of their way to show Spike as a misogynist.

I *like* and find refreshing the idea that Spike isn't all hung-up about sexuality, that he enjoys and appreciates sex and so on. Spike having casual sex and going to strip clubs or whatever is fine with me. But I don't feel like it's being shown just as an aspect of characterization; I feel like it's being shown with a feeling of judgement. Like we're supposed to look down on Spike for this (and if we don't we're just delusional hormone-driven foolish hysterical women, which just goes to show you who the real sexist is *glares at David Fury*). Spike doesn't just have casual sex with Harmony (which would be nice, actually--Spike reclaiming his dick and getting over Buffy)--he takes advantage of the fact that she has feelings for him, uses her purely for his own physical pleasure and then doesn't even bother to check if she's okay after he knocks her out. Spike doesn't just call the alley woman a fool for being in a dark alley--he criticizes her with specifically gendered terms and mocks aspects specifically related to gender (like her shoes). This is the guy who tried to rape Buffy, and who supposedly used to get off on raping young girls. Put all that together and what I see is a not a Spike who is admirably open about sexuality and isn't ashamed about wanting to enjoy life, but rather an attempt by the writers to make me think that Spike is an overly-macho sexist pig.

The tough-guy exterior hid how vulnerable he was inside.
Now, he *is* the tough-guy exterior. I like tough-guy Spike. But it needs balance. It's like, he was such a boring wuss in S7 that they decided to erase that aspect of his personality entirely, which is going way too far. Spike was interesting because of that complex mix of love and vulnerability and tenderness with snarkiness and selfishness. Like, I think it was ck594us who pointed out how wonderful Spike was in "Spiral," how he could make that "shrimp" comment to upset Xander, but then a short while later he was genuinely reassuring Tara after she hurt him. That's complex, layered Spike--snarky and cruel and tender and vulnerable. Take away either side and you're left with a character who is so much less interesting -- S7 wuss Spike or AtS S5 asshole Spike.

He was snarky, but in doing so he pointed out the harsh truths that no one else wanted to face.
He's snarky in a buffoonish way. He doesn't point out truths, he just whines and bitches about nothing. (I did like him telling off the girl in the alley in "Soul Purpose," but that's the first time his snark has been perceptive all season, and IMO it crossed the line from snarky truth-telling to a sort of bullying, especially because of the sexist nature of his comments. I really wish they'd kept the part where he invited himself to dinner with the couple, because that would have been my Spike. Instead they threw in the stuff about him coming on to some women, which wouldn't bother me on its own, but in context is just one more example of the rude crude buffoonish misogynist Spike that Fury wants us to see.)

Interpersonal connections mattered more to him than great big notions of Destiny and Good vs. Evil.
Now it's all about the Destiny.

He wanted so desperately, so passionately, so powerfully, so completely, that I could feel it, and couldn't help wanting him to get what he desired.
Now, I don't really get any kind of passionate feelings off him at all.

He wanted to be valued on his own terms. He wanted the others to see that what he did mattered, even if he didn't have a soul or some big Destiny behind him.
Now, he's all about going after that Destiny, not being respected on his own terms but for the heroic role he could fulfill.

He didn't give a fuck about atonement. He knew that you can't change the past, you can only change the future.
Now he thinks he deserves to go to hell and suffer, even though he saved the world and has fought for good for years, because of what he did years ago without a soul. This makes zero sense; it's like saying you're responsible for what you do if someone drugs you and you lose all inhibition. We know perfecty well that *anyone* turned into a soulless vampire would behave that way at first, yet most people are able to contain that dark side of themselves as long as they have a soul. Spike thought he was consenting to sex in a alley, not 120 years of murder and mayhem. Why should Spike be punished because that side of him--which everyone has--was released against his will? He's perfectly able to contain it when he has a soul, and even reached the amazing achievement of controlling it without a soul. He should be rewarded, not sent to hell. And he should be the one saying this, not going "Oh, yeah, you're right, Angel, we're doomed to hell."

I used to know exactly what Spike was thinking just from the look in JM's eyes.
Now I have no clue what he's thinking most of the time--if I want to see layers, I have to fanwank them myself, and they're usually contradicted by something that he does or says later. It's like the writers aren't even bothering to give him a consistent inner life--they're just using him for whatever they want to show that week, even if it directly contradicts something that came earlier.

I used to be totally invested in the story. I really, really cared what happened.
Now, I find myself unable to invest in the story. I know that ME is almost certainly on a different page than I am--for example, I see Spike telling off the moron girl as refreshingly honest, so I'm sure ME will tell me later that it's proof that Spike isn't as good of a hero as Angel. So why should I bother letting myself get excited about it when I know they're just going to tell me later what a moron I am for liking it?

And in a larger sense, I see the world completely differently than the writers do in terms of gender (I'd rather see equality, not women castrating men), morality (I'm much more interested in grey areas than in the idea that everything should be reduced to a simplistic black vs. white), etc. I don't trust them to tell a consistent story or to care about characterization--just look what they did to Spike, or Cordelia, or Anya. If they don't get or don't like a character, they'll treat that character like nothing--a tool to illuminate aspects of other characters, with no value or consistentency on his or her own. Plus, ME fails to simply tell a story--they have to insert a moral message. I don't need to have that black and white moral crap shoved down my throat by them--I can watch George Bush on TV if I want to see that.

I'm not even going to start on what a pathetic sniveling little wuss souled Spike was in season seven, since the writers have apparently decided to pretend that never happened.

You can tell me a million perfectly sensible reasons why Spike is acting like this, but the fact remains that I find it irritating and boring. I can also see a million reasons why Buffy turned into a vicious self-obsessed abusive bitch post-resurrection, but I sure as hell am never going to like her for it.

I honestly can't think of a single thing that I liked about the old Spike that's still around. This guy has his face (with really bad makeup) and a sort of vague half-assed echo of his personality, but that's it.

This Spike bores me. There's nothing about his story that I find interesting or intriguing or meaningful. He's just another character, and kind of an irritating one.

I think maybe what it comes down to is that Spike -- the character, and his story -- doesn't effect me emotionally anymore (for all the reasons I've attempted to articulate above). Back when I first got into the show -- Intervention era, Afterlife era -- it was the strangest thing ever to find myself entranced by this TV character, and I completely embraced the character and the show. Now, I'm not able to do that -- I don't trust the writers to tell the story well, and I'm just not interested or emotionally effected by the character.

Um, yeah, and last thing: my dislike of Spike this season has absolutely nothing to do with the fact I think JM's makeup sucks. Just to clarify that. The crappy makeup annoys me, but I would love a well-written Spike no matter how JM looked. They're two completely separate issues, and I really don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm only dissatisfied with the character because I'm not as attracted to him.

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Well, I'm glad you decided to post this since you summed up a lot of feelings I'd been having about Spike for awhile, but hadn't been able to articulate besides thinking "Shut up, Spike" in my head every time he opened his mouth.

I especially agreed with you on all of this:

The tough-guy exterior hid how vulnerable he was inside.
Now, he *is* the tough-guy exterior. I like tough-guy Spike. But it needs balance. It's like, he was such a boring wuss in S7 that they decided to erase that aspect of his personality entirely, which is going way too far. Spike was interesting because of that complex mix of love and vulnerability and tenderness with snarkiness and selfishness. Like, I think it was ck594us who pointed out how wonderful Spike was in "Spiral," how he could make that "shrimp" comment to upset Xander, but then a short while later he was genuinely reassuring Tara after she hurt him. That's complex, layered Spike--snarky and cruel and tender and vulnerable. Take away either side and you're left with a character who is so much less interesting -- S7 wuss Spike or AtS S5 asshole Spike.

He was snarky, but in doing so he pointed out the harsh truths that no one else wanted to face.
He's snarky in a buffonish way. He doesn't point out truths, he just whines and bitches about nothing. (I did like him telling off the girl in the alley in "Soul Purpose," but that's the first time his snark has been perceptive all season, and IMO it crossed the line from snarky truth-telling to a sort of bullying, especially because of the sexist nature of his comments. I really wish they'd kept the part where he invited himself to dinner with the couple, because that would have been my Spike. Instead they threw in the stuff about him coming on to some women, which wouldn't bother me on its own, but in context is just one more example of the rude crude buffonish misogynist Spike that Fury wants us to see.)

Season 7 Spike bored me most of the time and now this Spike is just annoying the hell out of me. I feel like we're watching a toy version of Spike where the writers pull the string and out comes some sort of cliched Spikeism either in what he says or what he does. His character seems flat to me, like a cartoon character.

I feel like we're watching a toy version of Spike where the writers pull the string and out comes some sort of cliched Spikeism either in what he says or what he does.

Yes, that's exactly it.

Thanks for letting me know that you agree. I feel slightly less insane now. :)

I agreed with a lot of what you said, disagreed with some of it, but found the whole of your post entertaining (in the sense that it was interesting and thought-provoking) and your points clearly and coherently stated.

I thoroughly applauded Spike for scolding the girl in the alley and even for calling her a stupid cow, a term which, I think, although I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong, is far more common and slightly less offensive in the UK. And really, now that the word "bitch" has taken on a more (buzzword warning) empowering and in your face usage (like the word "queer" has), that another epithet was needed. Well, if not needed, at least inevitable. And they certainly couldn't have gotten away with using the other C-word.

I watched BtVS for just a few characters - the Fanged Four, Giles, sometimes Willow, etc. (and watched it in spite of Buffy), but I've always watched Angel for the entire ensemble and the story. I'm not watching Angel any differently now that Spike's there.

But biggest Amen you'll get from me is your point about ME always putting the message before the story and the characterization. In my perfect show, you'd start with characterization, throw the perfected (but not perfect and not unchangeable) characters into wild stories, unbelievable situations, incredible dilemmas, absurdist vignettes, Restoration Drama, what have you, and let the message come out as it may, but driven by the characters and the story, rather than the other way around. You know what? I'm sick to death of the good guy always winning (and having to be pretty to be good, but that's whole 'nother rant).

Well, I started out intending to complement you and reassure you that at least *I* won't unfriend you and along the line decided to have a little rant of my own. Apologies, but, like I said earlier, yours was a very thought-provoking post.

It's just the whole idea of someone who we've been told is a misogynist, who used to rape and murder women, now going out of his way to threaten and humiliate another woman. (And yes, "cow" wasn't the worst epithet he could have used, but why did it have to be a gendered term at all?) Like I said, this scene on its own wouldn't have bothered me, but in combination with everything else it just feels like Fury trying to hammer his agenda into my head. Of course, I respect your right to disagree. And it was cool to see someone being honest and logical instead of playing into that whole ridiculous "mysterious hero" archetype.

But biggest Amen you'll get from me is your point about ME always putting the message before the story and the characterization.

Yes, exactly! Thank you for articulating this--it's definitely how I feel. This is part of the reason I prefer fic--good fic writers focus on crafting characterization, plot, style, etc. for their own sake. To tell an interesting story, to explore a theme, not just to teach a "lesson." If a fic writer were to blatantly distort characters to push a moral agenda or fit a plot, I can just dismiss it as agenda fic and stop reading. (Not that fic writers don't have messages--

rahirah's Necessary Evils has an interesting message about balance, for example--but she keeps the characters in-character and never lets the moral become more important than the characters and the story.)

No chance of defriending here. I did disagree, sometimes quite strongly, with most of what you said, but it's all a matter of opinion, no wrongs and rights, and I'm appreciative of you taking the time to write this up. Can't have been easy. I've been trying for a long time to work out why so many of my friends were drifting away from a show and a character I still love, and I you definitely through some light on the issue in your usual articulate and entertaining way. I can see we're your coming from. So, thank you for this post.

Thanks. I'm glad you don't just think I'm totally nuts. :)

And I'm glad you're still enjoying the character.

What a wonderful post! Thank you immensely for sharing this. You've expressed all sorts of things I loved about Spike with such astounding clarity and beauty and right-ness. This is an incredibly moving and very clearly argued list of points and I think you might be surprised at the number of people who are, for want of a better way of putting it, "not minding" Spike this season who will still wholeheartedly agree with everything you've written here.

I watch Spike on Angel and enjoy him well enough, but I have to put aside an enormous weight of doubt and regret to do that.

I enjoyed Season 7 in a lot of ways, and I know you didn't from a lot you've written in the past - but I can understand even more why you didn't from what you've written here.

I guess there are two ways of making a point about something you don't like - I come across a lot of tired, bitter comments and while I appreciate why people make them I'm tempted sometimes to think that it seems a bit trivial to get so down over a TV show. But what you've written here is the other way of doing it - to explain your perspective in a rational and passionate way that shows your thoughts to be important beyond the fact that it is a TV show, if that makes sense. In doing that, you've shared a vision for Spike that you had that, even though it has failed to be realised on the show, is inspiring and uplifting and something I know I will want to come back to.

Thank you so much for this. I'm just so sorry the show has let you down, because it's very clear you deserved better.

Now it's all about the Destiny.

I cling to the hope that Spike is going through a fucked up sort of learning curve at the moment and this is just some delusional notion that is going to come back and slap both him and Angel in the face. I like to think all is not what it seems, but I guess only time will tell.

Wow, thanks. I'm glad what I wrote made sense to you. :)

Thanks for putting all of this into words for us. I don't know how you can be so passionate and so articulate at the same time.

I agree with almost everything you've written. So many missed opportunities ... so many flaws. I read somewhere that Whedon prohibits ME staff from looking at BtVS/AtS internet stuff ... maybe they ought to have a squiz so they can see how other writers take the characters and make them richer and deeper and altogether more coherent.

I'm completely unspoiled, so I'm trying to avoid making much of a judgement about the show as it's the season is only halfway through and seems too early to tell where they're going with some of the arcs. But I'm not expecting to be leaping about for joy in May.

I can't see why they wouldn't let the ME staff read fic (legal considerations; no one wants to get sued) but they ought to pay attention to fan reactions to episodes. (Part of the problem with that is that most Spike fans have retreated to specific Spike-centric boards, so the general boards that ME is likely to visit tend to lack a Spike-fan presence).

Thanks; I'm glad you like my post. :)

After reading this, I can see quite clearly why you are so out of love with Spike. I'm so sorry. Although I don't share your views - or at least only in part, let me join you for the Fury hatred - I understand perfectly where you're coming from and why you feel the way you do, because you have explained it so well. I've no intention of unfriending you because you feel this way, and I hope you won't feel you have to unfriend me because I feel differently.

Whatever - I hope that you'll at least turn this post into a letter and send it to ME. I just feel that they can't be told too many times how much they've fucked up their characters and pissed off their fans. As you know, in spite of my continued Spike-love, I love him in spite of what is done to him in the show, and will never, ever forgive Joss and co for the attempted rape and its consequences, not just for Spike but for all the characters.

I hope you won't feel you have to unfriend me because I feel differently

Of course not. You're always respectful in your disagreement. I'm glad my post made sense, at least.

You can add me to the list of agreers. I too have felt for a long time that the Spike I loved died in Grave. I disagree in one point though, I do still like him, but there is a lot of disappointment in the direction he been taken. His personality seems flat and all that sexuality has been stripped away. I sometimes wish they'd gone the route of developing the William personality we saw in Lessons and Beneath You, at least he rang true.

And JM's make up is atrocious. Why can't he wear more of those nice shirts from season 6?

I too have felt for a long time that the Spike I loved died in Grave. I disagree in one point though, I do still like him, but there is a lot of disappointment in the direction he been taken.

I wholeheartely agree with

bogwitch.

Oh, and can we burn that damn duster already? Put the guy in some decent clothes. Every time I see Spike in the damn duster, it looks as if he's being swallowed whole or trying to play dress up in his father's coat.

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rusty_halo.livejournal.com - 2004-01-23 18:17 (UTC) - Expand

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rusty_halo.livejournal.com - 2004-01-23 18:16 (UTC) - Expand

and I really don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm only dissatisfied with the character because I'm not as attracted to him.

actually, this part IS true for me, but not in the way that most people would intend it. i really didn't find spike "attractive" until i really started to care about him and his inner life, with the advent of spuffy. it was only after i became invested in the character that he became attractive to me.

i think your character assessment is bang on the nose. spike has ceased to be spike. i am not drawn into the story, nor do i care about what happens in the same way anymore. there are days i strongly feel that BtVS really should have ended at the end of season 5, despite some gems from season 6. and i think that ME has squandered pretty much every truly rich opportunity that has presented itself, plot-wise, and character-wise in the past 2.5 years on buffy and now with the re-imagining of angel.

yes, there were things to like in soul purpose, and yes, there were some few hints of spike lurking under that pasty exterior, but i too feel so little faith in ME that i don't expect to see anything good or meaningful or complex come out of it.

sigh.

thanks for putting into words something that i strongly felt, but wouldn't be able to articulate nearly as well!

i think that ME has squandered pretty much every truly rich opportunity that has presented itself, plot-wise, and character-wise in the past 2.5 years on buffy and now with the re-imagining of angel

Yup. Totally. (And it wasn't just with Spike--look at Dawn or Anya or Xander or Giles). It astounds me how many interesting ideas and possibilities they completely failed to pursue (and how much boring filler they gave us instead).

"The Gift" was definitely the best ending for Spike that I can think of. It was a happy ending for him, really: he was left with a purpose, a promise that I had no doubt he would devote himself to, and suffering that would hurt, but that would ultimately make him a better person.

I'd even be happy with OMwF as an ending--S6 was quite good up until then, and the episode ended with a note of promise (to our delusional little Spike-fan minds, at least--now I think it ends with a note of absolute horror, the first step in the utter destruction of my Spike).

And then there is "Dead Things," which is such a wonderful episode on its own--so complex and thought-provoking and well-made. Yet ME failed to follow up on it, and decided to completely gloss-over and dumb-down all the issues it raised.

So I guess in my mind the series ends with "The Gift" or with "Once More, with Feeling," and "Dead Things" is just a little snippet of a continued universe that could have been interesting.

You've got well-articulated and absolutely valid opinions. They are not exactly the same as my own, but that hardly matters. I see Spike as a chameleon who adjusts to his environment. While I do like Post-Grave Spike through to the present day. I fully acknowledge that he's very different from how he was in the "Intervention" to "Afterlife" era. We don't have to agree for me to appreciate your point of view, and I'm certainly not interested in defriending you and missing out on your insights. :)

Thanks. :)

It's not that I wanted Spike to remain the same as in "Intervention" or "Afterlife" forever. I like my characters to grow and change and develop. It's just that in developing him ME did a very poor and inconsistent job, and took away every single aspect that I liked about the character.

This is why I friended you in the first place. You speak you mind and express your opinions so eloquently. We agree sometimes, we disagree sometimes.

As for Spike, I keep hoping we get glimmers of the Spike we have come to love. Not the wuss, not the asshole. The snarky and passionate one. Is that too much to ask?

And yes, the makeup sucks. Too thick, too pasty. Too pale. Grrr. Whatever happened to the less is more philosophy?

I keep hoping we get glimmers of the Spike we have come to love

I guess that's why I kept watching after "Grave," but I've realized that I'm not going to get a Spike that I'm interested in. It's not worth it (to me) to stick around for a few little glimmers of a Spike I like when 95% the character bores/annoys me. :(

But thanks for what you said. :)

No defriending here because your post is intelligent and well-thought out. You state specific points and identify precisely why you're unhappy.

This Spike bores me. There's nothing about his story that I find interesting or intriguing or meaningful. He's just another character, and kind of an irritating one.

So clearly you're not as attracted to Spike as you once were -- and by that I mean the character, not the physicality. If we were only attracted to the physical, there should have been overwhelming love for the last half of S6 when he was naked half the time he was on-screen. But we were attracted to a complex character on an interesting journey...and the journey and path they've put him on doesn't appeal to you.

It's a perfectly valid viewpoint. For all that I'm enjoying the season, I'm also finding myself more distanced from the characters. BtVS always provoked a well-spring of ideas and plot lines, only a fraction of which I've managed to put on paper. AtS does not do the same. I'm eager to see a new episode, but when it's over, I'm back to what I was doing and wondering what twist L&O is going to have this week.

But we were attracted to a complex character on an interesting journey...and the journey and path they've put him on doesn't appeal to you.

Yes, that's basically what it is.

I'm not a regular TV watcher. I actually wasn't watching TV at all around the time I got into BtVS--my roommate always had it on, and I couldn't sleep, so finally I gave in and started watching with her. (This was around season five--I had watched the first two seasons but got bored with the show in season three and stopped watching). Then I saw "Crush" and "Intervention" and the rest is history.

But the point is, I don't watch shows that I don't feel passionately about. I won't just randomly watch TV. Right now I only watch AtS, and maybe occasionally "Smallville" or "South Park" or "The Daily Show."

But if I'm not finding anything particularly interesting about AtS ... why watch? Maybe it's well-made technically or whatever, but I need more than that to make me turn on my television. I'd much rather be reading fic or a book.

I friended you a little while back after coming across your Spike views. I agree with a lot of what you've written here; you've articulated exactly what makes me squirm about souled Spike. I don't know, maybe no one knows how to write him anymore. Really excellent post.

Thanks. :)

maybe no one knows how to write him anymore

Well, there are fic writers who can do it. :) But, alas, they are not writing for Mutant Enemy.

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aea - 2004-01-28 18:13 (UTC) - Expand

I agree with just about everything you said except this:

This makes zero sense; it's like saying you're responsible for what you do if someone drugs you and you lose all inhibition.

But we've already had that conversation, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse. :)

I just wanted to add a complaint that occurred to me while watching Soul Purpose. I was reminded by your thoughts on the Spike-of-old's Gray Area Morality.

Right now one of the conflicts on Angel is that Angel wants things to be black and white, while Wes, Gunn, Fred, etc... find the "gray" morality of Wolfram & Hart acceptable, right? And yet, it seems clear, for reasons I don't feel like enumerating, that we're supposed to sympathize with Angel. That we're supposed to crave the black and white morality of early seasons of BtVS and Angel.

Now that Spike is all bound and determined to find his Big Destiny as a Hero, he's shucking off the gray area that is Wolfram and Hart, and embracing the lifestyle of Angel's humble beginnings as a hero. I find it particularly ironic that Spike, Questionable Morality Posterboy of the Century - of all people - is probably the only character on the show that suspects or believes, along with Angel, that W&H is a slippery, evil slope that can never be used to do Real Good.

And I wonder if this is just a big 'Fuck You' from the writers of the show (a la the AR scene which, as far as I can gather, was engineered specifically to show Spike fans that all vampires, including Spike, are evil - and consequently flush two years of character development down the toilet). It's like they're bent on proving to us that gray just ain't good enough. That real heroes and hero-wannabes all see things in black and white (Buffy, Angel, and now Spike), and FU if you don't agree. How boring. Angel fears he's no longer a real hero because he's involved himself in "corporate good" and envies the vigilante, do-gooding lifestyle that Spike can now embrace. Because as we all know, there's no such thing as compromise when you're working for the greater good. What a load of horseshit. And what an insult to the fans to illustrate Angel's moral struggle with Spike, who's always played by his own rules.

Makes me mad. *takes deep breath* Sorry for venting in your journal. :)

/rant

I feel that a strong part of Angel's character is his paternalism. So when he misses his vigilante early days it's not so much missing the black and white morality or the simplicity as it is missing the control. He used to be the one who got to decide who was an enemy and who was a friend ... and if he made a mistake then he got to decide whether he was going to compensate or walk away (like in 'Judgement' when he accidentally killed that woman's champion and then stood in for him; and he got to decide what happened to Connor). Now he's at W&H and surrounded by people giving their opinions, and constrained by the corporate culture and the capitalist imperative, and he doesn't get to make those decisions on his own any more.

I agree that the black and white morality is also a factor, but I don't think it's the only one in play here.

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rusty_halo.livejournal.com - 2004-01-25 06:40 (UTC) - Expand

Yup -- I agree with you on every. Single. Item on that list. Seriously. Every item. All those problems that you're having with this season's Spike? Same here. I started having those issues towards the end of S7, and now, on ATS ... that's just not my Spike. Not at all.

The tricky part is, I still love BTVS. I still love Spike. But I don't see the current Spike or the current storyline as something I want to watch. I don't care about that Spike, or his stupid destiny. The Spike I loved didn't have a destiny, and if he did, then he was hellbent on proving said destiny wrong. And maybe *that's* one reason why I can't get into ATS this year -- to me, Spike was always the unique one, the outsider, the rebel. Now, with this whole new "quest" of his, he's just the establishment all over again, and that's just not appealing to me. I liked the thought of Spike as a wholly unique creature -- now, he's just like everyone else. Meh.

I'm also sick and tired of people who say that the only reason why we're losing interest in Spike is because he's "less attractive" this season. Whatever. That just pisses me off. I do not give two figs how he looks. Yeah, the man is pretty. Yeah, he attracted a lot of fans that way. But you know, it takes more than just good looks to get people to invest themselves in a character the way people used to invest themselves in Spike and his story.

Take Arvin Sloane from Alias, for example. That cast is a world of pretty, but my favorite character, the one I lust after and adore, is a balding man in his fifties with a hairy belly and man-titties. Why? Because the character is *that* fucking good. I honestly do not care what the character looks like -- if I like the character, I'll invest myself in him.

So, anyway, yeah -- not defriending you anytime soon. ;)

Spike was always the unique one, the outsider, the rebel. Now, with this whole new "quest" of his, he's just the establishment all over again

Yes, exactly.

One of the big things that appealed to me about Spike's story was the idea that the outsider, the one who is different, still has value and still matters as a person just as much as anyone else, and can still be a good person even if they live an unconventional life. And that an unconventional life does not equal a less enjoyable or less valid life. (This is why the idea that Spike has to become human in order to "matter" or be happy makes me want to vomit).

I know that this comes from falling in love with Spike less than a year after high school ended. My group in high school was the "freaks"--we weren't even goth, because we didn't want to be limited with a category like that, we were just freaks. The people who didn't fit into any other social group. A lot of people who were smarter than most, or more artistic, or who didn't buy into the system. In my school it was basically make good grades = higher average GPA and SAT = higher local property values, and this was all the administration cared about. So anyone who didn't make good grades, or who looked different, or was into art and not academics, was meaningless. Nothing. Less than nothing--someone they actively wanted to get rid of. So, for example, the jocks could throw coins at one of my friends (because he's Jewish, that was their way of picking on him) and they would never get in trouble, but if he tried to fight back or throw something back in any way, the administration would immediately single him out and he'd get in trouble. The ones who started it never would, because they looked "normal." We were constantly picked on for not conforming and not buying in to the system.

Anyway, so I'd just came out of six years of this, and then here on my TV is the character who was like us. His look drew me first (we would've gotten in trouble for wearing a coat like that) and the whole punk/goth look, and then the character and the story. The fact that he was an outsider in every way.

But, y'know, he was a vampire, on a show about a heroic vampire slayer, so it's not like I jumped headlong into being an obsessive fan. I was cautious--lots of people fell in love with him in "Fool for Love," but I didn't until "Intervention." That's what he proved to me that he was valuable, that he did matter just as much as anyone else, that he could become a good person, and that he deserved to be treated with just as much decency as any other character.

Um, which is why BtVS ultimately repulses me, because I think S5 was a fluke. The real message was that if you're an outsider, not one of the "Chosen," your life is meaningless, you can never be a good person, and the best, most fulfilling thing you can hope for in your life is to be given the opportunity to lick the boots of those chosen. And hey, if you're really lucky, maybe you'll even have the honor of dying so that those who are "above" you can go be "normal."

I guess what it comes to is:

S5: Lovely outsider Spike, good story.
S6: Lovely outsider Spike, horrible horrible offensive story.
S7: Pathetic shell of outsider Spike, horrible horrible offensive story.
AtS S5: Annoying insider Spike, what I expect to be another horrible horrible offensive story.

I was watching as long as my outsider Spike was there, even when it was clear that the story would fuck him over. But now that he's not even a Spike that appeals to me ... why bother?

Um, yeah. Sorry for the long rambly reply. But thanks for your comment. :)

I think it was ck594us who pointed out how wonderful Spike was in "Spiral," how he could make that "shrimp" comment to upset Xander, but then a short while later he was genuinely reassuring Tara after she hurt him. That's complex, layered Spike

Yup, he's been flat and one dimensional on AtS IMO, and watching BtVS season 5 makes the contrast very apparent. ::hugs season 5::

I did enjoy "Soul Purpose," and Spike in it, much more than I have in most other episodes. That said, I sort of have to separate this version of Spike from "my" version, if that makes sense. The fact that I have always been an AtS fan probably helps in that regard, but the show has never affected me or inspired me (to write fanfic) in the same way that BtVS did. I enjoy it, but on a completely different level.

Yay for season five. :)

I've been mentally separating "my" Spike from onscreen Spike ever since "Grave." To me it doesn't seem worth it anymore.

I understand what you're saying. It's really all about what draws a person to the character and with Spike there's a lot of diffent parts and stories that can draw people in. This season of Ats definately could combust in a massive train wreck of S7 proportions and ME has very little cred to stand on these days. So I do understand I just don't feel the same way. :) Though I do feel that my Spike died somewhere around "Grave" cause my Spike really wouldn't have gotten the soul anyway *sigh*

Yeah -- what drew me to the character is just completely not there anymore.

I can see my Spike choosing to get the soul, but only because he was, at that point, completely emotionally broken and was basically having a mental breakdown, and he believed, after having it literally beaten into him, that the only thing that could make him valuable as a person was to have a soul. *sniffle* My poor boy.

I really enjoy your insights into Buffy and Angel. I can't say I agree with everything, but it is all thought provoking. I hope you don't mind that I "friended" you. I'm curious and anxious to read more of your thoughts.

Just so you know, I'm not a type of person that will comment much, whether I disagree or agree. I am like you when it comes to forming an opinion. It has to soak into me for awhile before I can process it and then communicate it. Mostly I'll just read what you write, and smile or frown.

Lastly, not that it matters, but I'm a Giles fan. I miss him! I have always been sympathetic to Spike, however. James Marsters does an excellent job. I first empathized with the character while watching Fool For Love. How can you not feel for him after that episode?

:)

Thanks. :) Of course, you're welcome to friend me.

It'll take a lot more than a difference of opinion about a fictional TV character to make me unfriend you, you know that, so I read what you write and again boggle at how articulate you are, how much you've thought about this stuff, and how passionate you are about it. I think your intelligence and thoughtfulness are two of the things I admire most about you.

I look at AtS this year this way: Spike isn't the main character on this show and everyone - including JM, I think, 'cause he's smart like that - is very very wary of having him outshine or in any way get in the way of Angel and his story. So they've changed the character to make him less stand-out-ish and more part of the ensemble-ish. Does that make sense? (And yes, those are technical terms.)

Personally that makes sense to me. They brought JM to AtS to bring his following and their buying power to the show, not because he's any kind of amazing talent (which we all know he is) or because he had any kind of pivotal stories to tell. Those are things we as fans would love to see but it really comes down to economics for everyone involved, JM included, so I'm very much not surprised that he's very different on the show, not being used as much, changed to be far a far less positive character on the show.

'Cause let's face it: if he were the Spike so many of us fell in love with, he'd lay to waste every other person on that cast, and I'm saying this, a person who watched Angel before she watched Buffy. There's no way they're going to let that happen, so he's not what he was. And he probably won't be either.

Sucks.

They brought JM to AtS to bring his following and their buying power to the show, not because he's any kind of amazing talent (which we all know he is) or because he had any kind of pivotal stories to tell. Those are things we as fans would love to see but it really comes down to economics for everyone involved, JM included, so I'm very much not surprised that he's very different on the show, not being used as much, changed to be far a far less positive character on the show.

That's so true, and so depressing. AtS has never resonated for me the way BtVS did, but I would never have believed they'd drop the ball so badly with Spike.

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rusty_halo.livejournal.com - 2004-01-25 07:47 (UTC) - Expand

Laura, I agree with you in so many ways its scary. So many people I know are thhiiiiss close to not even bothering watching AtS this season anymore. It's a kind of torture, hoping the real Spike will please show up.

I feel like we're watching a toy version of Spike where the writers pull the string and out comes some sort of cliched Spikeism either in what he says or what he does.

That sums it up perfectly. I even find myself getting irked when he says "bloody" anymore, because for some reason it just doesn't FEEL right anymore.

I still watch, but I also still mourn the loss of what made this character so amazing for me. Whatever it was, it was elusive, and I think it's gone. (Although there were moments this past week when I saw a glimmer of things I once loved about the guy.)

Thanks. :)

That's why I read fic--I can find my Spike there sometimes. But it's pretty pointless to torture myself by watching a show where he's only going to be mutilated beyond recognition. I wouldn't read Spike fic written by a Duck; why read Spike written by Mutant Enemy? Plenty of fan writers understand him better anyway; ME is just doing this weird paint-by-numbers thing that is *not* working.

Don't agree with a damn thing, but sure as hell not about to defriend you for it.

The one thing you really ought to try to see differently, though, because as a long time Angel the Series fan, I can assure you of? It's not about Angel being a better guy or hero than Spike. Not ever. Angel is NOT a good guy. Not a White Hat. He's an asshole. I love him anyway, but he is. He is NEVER held up as the paragon of goodness.

And the Spike we see on AtS is a reflection of Angel- in Soul Purpose it was what Angel feared he could never be, for example- more than just what Spike is. Just like on BtVS, all the characters were seen through Buffy's lense. Spike will either be a hero or fail miserably in his own right. But it won't have anything to do with uplifting Angel. Angel is the tragic hero guy. He's never ever gonna win. And that's the point.

Also...stripper bars are mysoginistic? Hunh. I need to rethink my weekends. *wink*

He is NEVER held up as the paragon of goodness.

Lol, IIRC, I believe Fury was actually quoted in a rather recent interview (sometime during season seven, BtVS) describing Angel in that exact phrase: "Paragon of goodness." Whereas, he stated, Spike was not.

The Angel I love certainly isn't a paragon of goodness (because, um, boring?), but I don't think the writers view him the way I do.

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rusty_halo.livejournal.com - 2004-01-25 08:04 (UTC) - Expand

I completely, completely agree with all of your reasoning here, and am so glad someone articulated it so well. My only disagreement really is on season seven Spike-- yes, there were times when I really wished he'd take his balls back from Buffy and superglue them back on, overall I loved his story. Though everything has paled in comparison to the perfection that was season five Spike. In fact, season five itself was perfection. Ah, the good old days, when I didn't feel bland about most of the characters and actually trusted the writers to tell a good story.

I've been spending my Wednesdays taping AtS and watching the OC instead. I've never been this ambivalent toward the show before. I adored season four of AtS and looked forward to seeing Spike come on, but so far, I'm not happy. I don't need a lot-- just decent characterization and a little imagination. It shouldn't be so hard to tell a good story; the potential is there.

season five itself was perfection

Well, except for that troll hammer that suddenly became a troll god hammer. ;)

But yeah, I get what you mean. Season five blew me away; it more than fulfilled my expectations. Everything they've done since then has convinced me that S5 was a fluke, unfortunately.

I'm going to stop taking AtS, but I'll probably download it so that I can watch it on my computer, then delete if it it's not worthwhile. Saves a videotape, and all. :)

I totally agree.

Thanks. :)

Hee, we agree on Spike and on Lord of the Rings. It's like we're sharing a brain ... ;)

You can tell me a million perfectly sensible reasons why Spike is acting like this, but the fact remains that I find it irritating and boring. I can also see a million reasons why Buffy turned into a vicious self-obsessed abusive bitch post-resurrection, but I sure as hell am never going to like her for it.

I honestly can't think of a single thing that I liked about the old Spike that's still around. This guy has his face (with really bad makeup) and a sort of vague half-assed echo of his personality, but that's it.

This Spike bores me. There's nothing about his story that I find interesting or intriguing or meaningful. He's just another character, and kind of an irritating one.

I think maybe what it comes down to is that Spike -- the character, and his story -- doesn't effect me emotionally anymore (for all the reasons I've attempted to articulate above). Back when I first got into the show -- Intervention era, Afterlife era -- it was the strangest thing ever to find myself entranced by this TV character , and I completely embraced the character and the show. Now, I'm not able to do that -- I don't trust the writers to tell the story well, and I'm just not interested or emotionally effected by the character.

Thank you, Laura, for this entire entry, but particularly this last bit above. As usual, you've expressed clearly and thoughtfully why I no longer watch Spike on "Angel." Actually, even if Spike weren't on AtS I probably wouldn't watch it as it's turned into a muddled, boring mess highly reminiscent of S6-S7 BtVS, but that's another issue altogether.

Um, yeah, and last thing: my dislike of Spike this season has absolutely nothing to do with the fact I think JM's makeup sucks. Just to clarify that. The crappy makeup annoys me, but I would love a well-written Spike no matter how JM looked. They're two completely separate issues, and I really don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm only dissatisfied with the character because I'm not as attracted to him.

My problem is that the crappy makeup, horrendous lighting AND JM's advancing age make it difficult for me to still believe that Spike is forever frozen at age 27. If ME wasn't going to continue giving him the most flattering makeup and lighting to mitigate his wrinkles and somewhat approximate the age he was at his turning, they bloody well should have addressed his appearance somehow (as they should for DB and his ever-expanding waistline). It's their fucking story, as we've all been told ad nauseam -- couldn't they come up with some sort of explanation for JM's crow's feet and frown lines, and DB's gut and jowls? Jesus Christ...

Thanks. :)

I don't know, I sort of buy into the whole "when it comes to unaging character playing by human actors, you just have to suspend disbelief" idea. But seriously, there is no excuse for the horrible makeup and lighting that they're using on JM this year. He doesn't have to look that old.

I think people respect you for having strong opinions and stating them. That takes guts :)

I read your 20 points - and, although you have a very large list of 'friends', I'd like to add you to mine.

I look forward to more of your posts - they are very enjoyable and thought-provoking.

Thanks. :)

Of course, you're welcome to add me to your friends list. :)

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