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I got woken a half hour early today because of jackhammers. Jackhammers! Right outside my building. I was thinking (as I held the pillow uselessly over my ears) that if I went outside and killed the construction workers, I could probably get off on temporary insanity. On account of being driven insane by jackhammers at eight in the morning.

That was a crappy way to wake up.

London Hellmouth got recommended on BBF. Yay! If you had trouble getting to it yesterday, it should be working fine now, so check it out. Wonderful story.

Also, Carolyn Claire's Thirst completely kicks ass as well. Spike/Xander, post-Gift, very creepy and sexy. She does a really wonderful job of creating a place and an atmosphere and a mood ... you really have to read it to get what I mean.

I have so much wonderful stuff to archive right now; did I mention how glad I am that Spike's on Angel? But I'm spacing it out, because if I archive everything at once, some stories will slip through unnoticed. So ... going slow. (If you're waiting for me to archive something, that's why it might take a little while.) I wonder if I archived too many long stories at once in the last few days ... is it too much to read? (For those who usually read a lot of what I archive.) Just curious if anyone has an opinion. I worry about these things.

Also,

deborahmm has some interesting thoughts here on the kink thing, inspired by posts by

eliade and

thebratqueen. I don't entirely agree with

deborahmm's view of Spike (though I do agree with a lot of what she said). Her post is interesting because I've been thinking about a lot of the same things lately, too.

eliade and

thebratqueen have both been posting very wonderful stories recently that don't turn me on at all, because they both hit what is, basically, my anti-kink. (Has nothing to do with the quality of their writing or anything like that, so no offense intended.) But basically, my anti-kink (something I can't enjoy no matter how well it's written) is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them. Like the idea of Spike (or Wesley) as whoever's "pet" just creeps me out completely, regardless of whether the "pet owner" is affectionate or cruel.

What's interesting to me is that there's such a fine line between kink and anti-kink for me. Because I totally think Spike is love's bitch, he needs his lover to to be the powerful one in the relationship (which was very true of Dru and Buffy; without that, he'll have no respect for them, as with Harmony). But Spike's also got a very strong sense of self (a lot of insecurity, but still a strong sense of self). When he wants something, he's not going to roll over and give it up. He'll always struggle, and he'll never let himself be totally dominated. He'll be in the submissive role because he likes it and needs it, but it's never total. (Like, even when he's totally in love with Dru and does her bidding most of the time, when he feels that she's lingering too much over Angel, he'll go behind her back and make a deal with the Slayer.)

So, I guess one way to explain the difference is, say there's a Spike/Angel story where the point is that Spike breaks and totally gives in to Angel. That's squicky. But say there's a story where Angel is still the powerful one, but Spike struggles and never stops snarking and demanding. He never totally gives in or accepts the situation. That's good. Or, something similar: Intervention totally hits a kink in a similar way. It's not romantic, but I just love how, even when he's being horribly tortured, Spike's making fun of Glory's hair and her big ass and completely refusing to give in at all. Whereas if he gave up and broke, it would just be sad and depressing.

Anyway, just some vague ideas. I wouldn't usually talk about kinks or any of that, because I'm horribly repressed. (Yes, I read gay vampire porn regularly and still manage to be horribly repressed. Not quite sure how that works.) But it's an interesting topic and

deborahmm has a view similar to mine, so I figured I'd attempt to articulate my thoughts. Though my views may change later as this is probably the first time I've made any attempt to articulate them at all.

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But basically, my anti-kink (something I can't enjoy no matter how well it's written) is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them.

YES. I have a real problem with that, too. It...well, frankly, it makes my skin crawl. The whole 'slave' thing? Not only "not sexy" to me - it so turns my stomach that I can't finish fics that have the merest hints of it in them. So I don't read it. I'm sure some of my personal kinks (men in eyeliner, excessive sexual talkiness, the whole vampire thing) turn some folks off, as well.

I've always seen Spike as someone who can get battered, almost destroyed, but doesn't give up. I can't see him as a slave and enjoying it either. It just isn't Spike.

I don't agree with you -- for once! -- on this particular anti-kink; I much prefer the Spike you describe, but I can also get into the slave stuff when it's written just right. (And can do so with any character, really; not sure what in my psyche clicks into it.) What stands as MY anti-kink are happyfluffy fics that attempt to gloss over everything wrong with a situation and have everyone singing a Disney tune by the time the story closes. If I sense it's coming, I have to put a story down. I know by now that finishing the story will make me want to yell at the author, "You think you've changed ANYTHING? You don't think the exact same patterns will emerge five hours later? You didn't address any underlying issues, you just polished a lump of dirt and called it a diamond!"

I guess willful delusion is my anti-kink.

Don't worry; if there are too many stories, there's always the right-click-save-as and our sturdy hard-drive. & ;-) I imagine it's easier to archive them as they come: less trouble for you thataway.

(Has nothing to do with the quality of their writing or anything like that, so no offense intended.) But basically, my anti-kink (something I can't enjoy no matter how well it's written) is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them. Like the idea of Spike (or Wesley) as whoever's "pet" just creeps me out completely, regardless of whether the "pet owner" is affectionate or cruel.

Yes! Absolutely-- one of the few things I find squicky.

What's interesting to me is that there's such a fine line between kink and anti-kink for me. Because I totally think Spike is love's bitch, he needs his lover to to be the powerful one in the relationship (which was very true of Dru and Buffy; without that, he'll have no respect for them, as with Harmony). But Spike's also got a very strong sense of self (a lot of insecurity, but still a strong sense of self). When he wants something, he's not going to roll over and give it up. He'll always struggle, and he'll never let himself be totally dominated. He'll be in the submissive role because he likes it and needs it, but it's never total. (Like, even when he's totally in love with Dru and does her bidding most of the time, when he feels that she's lingering too much over Angel, he'll go behind her back and make a deal with the Slayer.)

So very true. Just another fascinating facet of the Spike mosaic, this contradictory nature. Because *within* this dynamic, he will, occasionally, strive to dominate-- see Buffy in Dead Things (the balcony scene) or Dru in Lover's Walk ("I'll torture her until she comes back to me.")-- and/or be the protector-- see Dru in general, especially after the events in Prague, Buffy even back in Fool for Love, the beginning of Season Six, and the end of Season Seven, and, of course, Dawn in Season Five/Six.

Or, something similar: Intervention totally hits a kink in a similar way. It's not romantic, but I just love how, even when he's being horribly tortured, Spike's making fun of Glory's hair and her big ass and completely refusing to give in at all. Whereas if he gave up and broke, it would just be sad and depressing.

No kidding. For all my kinks, I actually abhor extreme violence and pain-- it's part and parcel of a vampire show, I know, and I don't mind all kinds of mental anguish and deep angst...but give me physical torture, and I just feel ill. Still, I love this episode: as you point out, Spike's behaviour in Intervention can counter this and give the storyline a different spin-- make it about courage and a stubborn sense of self instead of resignation and submission...

I was starting to think I was the only one who didn't get that "slave" kink. I've read the stories. I can't recognize the character. I can't relate. And yes, they ultimately squick me.

is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them.

See, to me those are two totally separate things. Someone wanting to let someone else have complete control over them? Sexy, in Mer world. At least in fiction. But someone wanting it *because* they have no sense of self, squicky. Big, big squick. Someone like that would be eaten up and destroyed by submission, and a dominant who wants a sub who'll be eaten up and destroyed is icky too.

But I don't at all believe that that's the only reason that someone *would* want that. I've got lots of room, in my mental model, for people who want to let someone else have complete control precisely because they have a strong sense of self and it is unthreatened by this, or by anything -- or even because it's *too* strong and this is what they need to balance it.

To me, so far, Pet is in the second category. For Spike, at least. It's a little too soon for me to say what's going on with Wes.

Which isn't to say you shouldn't be squicked by it. Your anti-kinks are your anti-kinks, and totally valid. Just saying it sounded to me like you're assuming that's the only motivation any character or person could have for such a desire, and I don't think that's true.

Mer

oh, wow. interesting.

dare i even chime in? i think i still may be trying to pinpoint exactly what my kinks are. i know the bdsm stuff definitely appeals more to me than fluffy happy la-la-la sex.

i gravitate to the stuff wherein my favorite character is forced to submit to someone else but yeah, i don't like for them to be completely broken. i like the characters for who they are. i like to think about how they'd react under extreme circumstances. if spike is subjugated and broken to the point where he is no longer spike at all, then it loses its appeal. i will, however, read the breaking down parts, where he's still in there. i can't just jump into a fic where suddenly spike is this puppydog with no will of his own. i have to know the process by which such a thing happened, and if it's realistic, then i can enjoy it. if i can't buy the reasoning for spike being so submissive, i can't buy him as submissive in that particular scenario. i don't really care much for stories wherein spike is willingly completely submissive. i agree, it seems out of character for him to just give in entirely. on some small level, he would rebel (imo).

as some may have guessed, i am not easily squicked. i like spike, and i really like suffering spike. i can understand how physical or psychological torture can bother some people and i have no idea why i like it so much. i can only say that i have always been that way. and it's nice to find out that there are others who share this particular kink.

and it's important to note that this isn't the only kind of fic i'll read. if i were to limit myself to reading only one type of fic, wow... i'd sure be missing out on a lot.

also... boys in eyeliner {drools}. i just need to find some good fics where punk!spike is enslaved and/or tortured horribly. is that so wrooong?

Total control that is monopolized for no other reason than that the dominant character needs to control others in order to feel better about himself (i.e. for selfish reasons) - that I cannot abide. Which is why TBQ's story is totally anti-kink for me.

TBQ's prose is lovely, the voices ok, but IMHO the charactersation is eh. Her Spike does not have anything in common with the one we've seen on BtVS S7 or on AtS. I haven't actually seen evidence of the soul.

I can see scenarios in which authority gives structure to a life/personality that has been shattered and traumatised, in which one character exercises control not because he or she enjoys it but because it's necessary. But I would always have to feel that the hierarchy is temporary and mutable.

Now *my* kink is equality. Shifts in power have to be negotiated. Power can be transferred and granted, but not usurped. I don't even mind the incest kink that permeates TBQ's fic, because I can see how a replacement father can have a certain erotic appeal to a certain frame of mind. I do mind the way Spike supposedly enjoys pain. I didn't see him enjoy Glory's torture. Spike is a wuss, he doesn't enjoy pain, which makes his resilience in 'Intervention' more noteworthy and admirable. At least that's how I see him.

But then again TBQ was quite open about the fact that she's writing her own kink. *shrug* I don't think kink-centric fic makes good fic just because the prose is well-crafted. But then I liked eliade's 'Subtleties, and those were indulgent too, just closer to something I can relate to. Objectivity is difficult when it comes to kink. :-)
Fortunately, nobody forces us to read or like everything that's out there. I may admire the craft and can be emotionally cold at the same time....

But basically, my anti-kink (something I can't enjoy no matter how well it's written) is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them. Like the idea of Spike (or Wesley) as whoever's "pet" just creeps me out completely, regardless of whether the "pet owner" is affectionate or cruel.

Aha! I love your thoughts on this and I quite agree. After reading the stories you talked about I was left with a unsettled feeling. I really cannot imagine (or don't want to) Spike getting to a place where he's broken, he's lost the wily asshole within. It doesn't appeal to me because the story takes away everything about Spike that I love. I might as well read about Joe the Slave then.

Similarly, I won't read stories that ship Spike/someone-other-than-Buffy but include the same plot of using him for sex. Bleh.

In my mind, Spike is love's bitch as he has demonstrated numerous times. But. There will always be a part of him, the independent bastard streak, that his partner can't touch. So he is able to knock Dru out in Becoming 2 and forcefully tell Buffy exactly who is to blame in Blood Ties.

Or, something similar: Intervention totally hits a kink in a similar way. It's not romantic, but I just love how, even when he's being horribly tortured, Spike's making fun of Glory's hair and her big ass and completely refusing to give in at all. Whereas if he gave up and broke, it would just be sad and depressing.

That is it exactly. Whenever I think of the highlight of all that is Spike, the scenes from that episode come to mind.

(I'm sorry if most of this is incoherent. My brain isn't working and I should have just pointed and said "pretty thoughts" but I can't shut myself up.)

I found it more difficult to ignore TBQ's story - or rather to read it disinteresdtedly - because it is well written, and that's just not a Spike I recognise, although he bears a lot of similarities to Spike in various B/A'er stories, who is basically Angel's lackey, and that's what he is here. He's fulfilling the Peter Capaldi man-servant role in Dangerous Liaisons. He's pimping out Wesley etc. It feels like a retreat to the distant past, to when Spike was pretty much of a cipher in Angel's shadow in most S/A fanfics. I just can't conceive of Spike giving up his emotional control to Angel for such a poor reason and I can't imagine him being satisfied with the punching bag role and not getting any emotional commitment in return. Much as I like Angel, however, I can - unfortunately - imagine him behaving in exactly the way he's described in this fic.

[Unknown site tag]'s fic doesn't bother me as much simply because Spike is so broken that he's basically unrecognisable, and although it may never be explained, something external has happened to cause that. He may want what he's getting from Wesley now, but he wouldn't if he was in his right mind. So there's an element of hurt in the comfort. In the other, we have Spike volunteering to be treated like shit, and I just find it very disturbing - especially after the season 6 Spike/Buffy relationship. I mean, this is Spike with a soul. He's been through that. Why would he suddenly forget everything?

I read what you said further upthread about being squicked by TBQ's Angel/Wesley, and wondered why that didn't really occur to me. I realised it's because I just cannot conceive of Wesley acting in that fashion and simply dismissed it as Not Wesley.

Her Spike however, because he's like a sort of Spike for Dummies version of the real Spike (by which I mean there were recognisable aspects of Spike in there, if filtered through a stuck in season 2 perception of him) disturbed me more.

However, I begin to wonder if that's the Spike we're going to end up with in AtS this season. Must be a reason why all the people who hated Trying to Change Spike (including the original Ducks) are so pleasd with what they've seen so far.

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