(no subject)

[rusty_halo]

I got woken a half hour early today because of jackhammers. Jackhammers! Right outside my building. I was thinking (as I held the pillow uselessly over my ears) that if I went outside and killed the construction workers, I could probably get off on temporary insanity. On account of being driven insane by jackhammers at eight in the morning.

That was a crappy way to wake up.

London Hellmouth got recommended on BBF. Yay! If you had trouble getting to it yesterday, it should be working fine now, so check it out. Wonderful story.

Also, Carolyn Claire's Thirst completely kicks ass as well. Spike/Xander, post-Gift, very creepy and sexy. She does a really wonderful job of creating a place and an atmosphere and a mood ... you really have to read it to get what I mean.

I have so much wonderful stuff to archive right now; did I mention how glad I am that Spike's on Angel? But I'm spacing it out, because if I archive everything at once, some stories will slip through unnoticed. So ... going slow. (If you're waiting for me to archive something, that's why it might take a little while.) I wonder if I archived too many long stories at once in the last few days ... is it too much to read? (For those who usually read a lot of what I archive.) Just curious if anyone has an opinion. I worry about these things.

Also, deborahmm has some interesting thoughts here on the kink thing, inspired by posts by eliade and thebratqueen. I don't entirely agree with deborahmm's view of Spike (though I do agree with a lot of what she said). Her post is interesting because I've been thinking about a lot of the same things lately, too. eliade and thebratqueen have both been posting very wonderful stories recently that don't turn me on at all, because they both hit what is, basically, my anti-kink. (Has nothing to do with the quality of their writing or anything like that, so no offense intended.) But basically, my anti-kink (something I can't enjoy no matter how well it's written) is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them. Like the idea of Spike (or Wesley) as whoever's "pet" just creeps me out completely, regardless of whether the "pet owner" is affectionate or cruel.

What's interesting to me is that there's such a fine line between kink and anti-kink for me. Because I totally think Spike is love's bitch, he needs his lover to to be the powerful one in the relationship (which was very true of Dru and Buffy; without that, he'll have no respect for them, as with Harmony). But Spike's also got a very strong sense of self (a lot of insecurity, but still a strong sense of self). When he wants something, he's not going to roll over and give it up. He'll always struggle, and he'll never let himself be totally dominated. He'll be in the submissive role because he likes it and needs it, but it's never total. (Like, even when he's totally in love with Dru and does her bidding most of the time, when he feels that she's lingering too much over Angel, he'll go behind her back and make a deal with the Slayer.)

So, I guess one way to explain the difference is, say there's a Spike/Angel story where the point is that Spike breaks and totally gives in to Angel. That's squicky. But say there's a story where Angel is still the powerful one, but Spike struggles and never stops snarking and demanding. He never totally gives in or accepts the situation. That's good. Or, something similar: Intervention totally hits a kink in a similar way. It's not romantic, but I just love how, even when he's being horribly tortured, Spike's making fun of Glory's hair and her big ass and completely refusing to give in at all. Whereas if he gave up and broke, it would just be sad and depressing.

Anyway, just some vague ideas. I wouldn't usually talk about kinks or any of that, because I'm horribly repressed. (Yes, I read gay vampire porn regularly and still manage to be horribly repressed. Not quite sure how that works.) But it's an interesting topic and deborahmm has a view similar to mine, so I figured I'd attempt to articulate my thoughts. Though my views may change later as this is probably the first time I've made any attempt to articulate them at all.

Comments

[netweight]

I was starting to think I was the only one who didn't get that "slave" kink. I've read the stories. I can't recognize the character. I can't relate. And yes, they ultimately squick me.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

See! That's why I originally had such a hard time with Spike/Angel. Because so much Spike/Angel is Angel being dominant and Spike being submissive, using the "sire/childe" thing as a way to take away all Spike's independence and make him Angel's slave. deborahmm addresses this in her post when she talks about how there was this original view of Spike as always secondary to Angel, hot and useful as a sexual object, but he always has to be "put in his place." Any fic that maintains that Spike needs to be "put in his place" makes me want to vomit. It plays on all those racist, judgemental "soulless vampires are the less-than-human 'other'" aspects of the whole soul/no-soul divide that make me angry and sick.

I know not all S/A is like that, and I'm definitely starting to develop an appreciation for it now based on what I see onscreen. (Which is that Angel's more powerful, but there is no way in hell Spike's going to submit to him.) But originally it was a big stumbling block, because the slave kink tends to be very prominent in S/A fic. The writers looking for a more equal relationship tend to gravitate toward Spike/Xander, which is a dynamic I've always preferred for that reason.

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

The writers looking for a more equal relationship tend to gravitate toward Spike/Xander

See, I can't see S/X being an equal relationship, either, though I tend to view S/A as being one (at least now, if not in their past dealings).

To me, S/X have such hostility towards one another, canonically speaking, that there's no way that it won't be a destructive, power-over relationship.

And that's why I like S/B on paper, because they can have that Beatrice-and-Benedict relationship (which is a secret kink of mine) that's all push-and-pull and sexual tension and witty repartee and striking sparks from one another. ::sigh::

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Well, I think that the mutual hostility is what makes for the equality of the S/X relationship. Neither is going to give in to the other, and they both have very similar barriers to work through. They also both have enough advantages and disadvantages that neither is in the inherently inferior position, whereas with S/A, Angel's always in the superior position.

S/X, to me, is like early S/B (back when it seemed like S/B could overcome their issues together and grow together in an equal, but challenging, relationship) -- the hostility, the repressed sexual tension. Only instead of Spike having to get over that he's fallen for his mortal enemy, he has to deal with that he's fallen for an annoying white-hat kid. And Xander, like Buffy, has to get over that he's fallen for a vampire, a "thing" that he's supposed to hate. (And then he has to deal with "is Spike really a 'thing'?" which is neat to see.) Oh, and the fact that Spike's a guy (whereas I doubt Angel would care--and I think it's interesting to see Xander struggling with issues of sexuality.) And, as with S/B, deep down S/X have a lot in common, though they wouldn't want to admit it--they're both outsiders, they're both insecure, they both surround themselves with powerful women, they both struggle to fit in and find a place, etc.

So that's what I mean about S/X being equal--they struggle and go back and forth and it could go either way; you don't get the instant "Angel's on top" that you get with S/A most of the time.

[ladyanne04.livejournal.com]

To me, S/X have such hostility towards one another, canonically speaking, that there's no way that it won't be a destructive, power-over relationship.

I have to agree with you - this has always been a major stumbling block for me from a canon perspective. I've read S/X in a manipulative relationship that made sense - but as equal partners? Just can't buy it. Schmoopy Spander never seems to ring true to me.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

It doesn't have to be schmoopy for them to be equal partners; quite the opposite, it requires that they deal with their issues and start to see each other as individuals.

The thing is, there is no automatic "this one is dominant" in their relationship. Who's going to have the power? They have to struggle over it, because it's not obvious. And that leads to a lot more complexity and character growth than a relationship with rigid, pre-defined power roles.

[ladyanne04.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that there isn't an argument to be made that Spike would be dominant. In the power structure of the Buffyverse, Spike is more powerful than Xander, especially post-chip, I would argue even pre-chip. Xander has heart, sure, but he's often been passive, only on rare occasions willing to take initiative, mostly content to sit and snipe witty comments from the background or bring the doughnuts. Don't get me wrong, I like Xander, and he could step up when needed, but he was deliberately drawn by the writers to be the everyman, the common man.

Spike however is not. He's a supernatural creature with greater strength, speed and healing ability. He's resilient in adapting to new situations and environments. Sure, he was probably even a bigger geek than Xander before being turned, but after? He might be a fool for love and impulsive, but he was never without power.

Which is why pairing him with other creatures of some power - with Buffy, with Willow, with Dru, or with Angel, doesn't necessarily put them in rigid pre-defined roles, but does level the playing field. To me, Spike and Xander are something like Buffy and Riley, in the end, one is just a human and one is more. And the differences that the non-human element makes in their nature ultimately would prevent them from ever being equal partners.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Have you read much S/X fic? Because I haven't seen that at all. I'm thinking of writers like, well, most of these: Annie Sewell-Jennings, Estepheia, Carolyn Claire, Fit of Pique, and so on.

Most S/X fic deals with the characters on equal ground, or negotiating ... there's very rarely a totally dominant one. A lot of S/X fic is set in season four, largely for that reason. Xander's lost his place, his identity, as the girls have gone off to college and left him behind. Spike's lost his identity because he's lost Drusilla and he's lost the ability to kill. Spike's supernatural status isn't benefitting him here; he can't even fight back. Xander could kick his ass. Plus, Spike's depending on Xander for food and shelter (in S4 and in early S7). At his worst, Spike's suicidal, shrinking his laundry, and wearing Xander's clothes while Xander laughs at him--he's very emotionally vulnerable. Xander ends up having a lot of power over him. But Spike has power too due to his age and experience. And he never gives in--he's still stealing Xander's lamp and mocking his ineffectiveness.

I just don't see the rigidly pre-defined roles at all. There are sometimes fics where one is dominant and the other is submissive, but the general trend that I've noticed (not that I'm a complete authority, but I read a hell of a lot of fic) is that Spike/Xander fics tend toward equality, where Spike/Angel fics tend toward Angel as the dominant one.

[ladyanne04.livejournal.com]

See that's the thing. I've read a fair amount, and if you focus on a narrow time frame in S4, from the time Spike is placed with Xander until he finds he can kill demons and then locates his own crypt, which is really a very narrow time space of a few episodes, you have them both in a lost, confused state and I would agree with everything you've said. But Spike also lives with Giles, is clearly seen lodging and being fed there as much or more than with Xander, Giles is in a similar state of flux, jobless, confused about his identity and his whole life purpose, yet that's not seen often (though as with every pairing there are some out there) as an equal relationship or one without pre-defined roles. And if anything, it's closer to being one, because of age and interests, than Spike and Xander.

I don't think there are rigid pre-defined roles necessarily in any relationship within this universe, because at least from my reading, what often attracts women to slash is the idea of equality in relationships just as you suggest - there is no rigid male and female role of the type you would often find in a romance - generally with more powerful males and less powerful females, instead with two males, you erase the gender distinction which implies those strengths and weaknesses. But BtVS has so many powerful females that the dynamic is shifted as a whole, because almost everyone how some sort of power. Except really Xander. And so while Spike gets out of the basement, and begins forging a new identity during S4, Xander doesn't. He cycles through dead end jobs, and is nagged and kicked around by Anya. So their positions, their temperments, don't lend themselves to an equality of relationship because of who they both are in the long term.

Now you can twist things in fic, you can change the parameters, you can go from one moment in time and set them up as equals. I've read S/X where they encounter each other outside of Sunnydale, where their memories are wiped, etc. I've read fic that focuses heavily on that basement period. But when viewing the characters and their development as a whole within the boundaries of canon, Spike appears to be the more dominant of the two. And a fair amount of S/X fic that I've read does cast Spike in a very manipulative role where he seduces Xander for his own purposes, even in that S4 framework, playing up that part of him.

So I can't see S/X as an inherently equal pairing, anymore than any other pairing in BtVS can be cast as an equal pairing, and possibly less. The fact that both go through an identity crisis and feel powerless is hardly novel, all the characters have at various points. And their open hostility to each other in canon has always made them a difficult pairing, unless the story is crafted to feed off how that hostility changes.

I would agree there is more equality in S/X fic than in S/A, virtually all S/A does seem to make Angel dominant. But a fair amount of S/X makes Spike dominant as well, either overtly or through his underlying manipulations.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

while Spike gets out of the basement, and begins forging a new identity during S4, Xander doesn't. He cycles through dead end jobs, and is nagged and kicked around by Anya. So their positions, their temperments, don't lend themselves to an equality of relationship because of who they both are in the long term.

I see the opposite. In early season five, Xander gets a nice apartment and a better job. In "The Replacement," he realizes that he's capable of adulthood and responsibility. Throughout season five he grows comfortably, and though he grows darker in season six, he's still powerful. In season seven, we see him confident and healthy, striding around in a suit and a better job. Emotionally healthy, missing Anya but ready to move on, being supportive to Buffy and Dawn.

Spike, meanwhile, falls for his worst enemy, mopes around desperately wanting her, gets tortured for her, breaks down when she dies, spends the summer taking care of her sister (with no emotional support, unlike Xander who has Anya and the Scoobies), is ostracized from the group when she returns, becomes her fucktoy, has a mental breakdown, gets a soul, goes (more) insane, spends early season seven in the school basement being haunted, moves in with Xander *again* while still incredibly emotionally fragile, gets tortured by the First Evil, gets chained up in Buffy's basement....

Basically, throughout seasons six and seven especially, Xander is the more powerful one. Spike still has the chip through most of this period, so Xander could kick his ass. Spike is dependent on the Scoobies to not kill him, and in season seven he's again dependent on them for food and shelter. Emotionally, Xander is the healthier one, because Spike's an absolute mess most of this time.

I see quite a bit of evidence that *Xander* could be the powerful one just as easily as Spike. And I like that this makes their relationship more equal. And from what I've seen (minus a few exceptions that go in both directions) it does.

[ladyanne04.livejournal.com]

I understand what you're saying about Xander's progression into adulthood and subsequent maturation. And I think I see why you would view Xander as equally powerful or more powerful than Spike. But in contemplating this, I kept coming back to the premise and wanted to ask - precisely how would you define an "equal" relationship? Equal in what terms and in what manner precisely? And conversely, what precisely would make an unequal relationship?

[netweight]

See! That's why I originally had such a hard time with Spike/Angel.

Yeah, I know. But, like I've already told you, most A/S fic out there is utter crap.

so much Spike/Angel is Angel being dominant and Spike being submissive, using the "sire/childe" thing as a way to take away all Spike's independence and make him Angel's slave. (...) there was this original view of Spike as always secondary to Angel, hot and useful as a sexual object, but he always has to be "put in his place."

The amazing thing is that I don't know where writers got that perspective because that is not, IMO the way the relationship is depicted in season 2. Spike? Submissive just for the sake of it? Ah frigging ah! I think not! Anyway, I've already made my perspective on this clear here. I think you've read it because it's on the "Conviction" review thread. But if you didn't there's the link. ;)

Anyway, you know where I stand - heck, you've archived my fic, haven't you? *g* I'd be surprised if we didn't agree on this. Now, that would be strange.

[ladyanne04.livejournal.com]

IMO the way the relationship is depicted in season 2. Spike? Submissive just for the sake of it? Ah frigging ah! I think not!

I'll second that. I know there are examples of Angel lording it over Spike while he's wheelchair bound, but Spike always had some animosity and anger in those moments, submissive or craving Angel's approval, he was not. Especially with the way things were played out in the Angel/Darla arc and the flashbacks of Angel S2 and Buffy S5, it almost seemed that the couples were revolving around each other without great impact at times. We never really see but a very few glimpses of Angelus and Spike, pre-soul, those moments are spent with Darla and Dru for the most part. The few times you do - like the the mineshaft scene, Spike is once again bucking authority. So the perception of Spike as submissive to Angel and craving his affections always struck me as odd and has been a turn-off for me in most of the S/A fics.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Yup, I agree with you. I love the complexity of the S/A relationship; it's really tragic when writers try to dumb it down. I think you're one of the writers who captures the complexity really well, without over-simplifying everything.

(Though, off topic, I have a hard time forcing myself not to jump into that thread and argue with Kita about the Seeing Red thing. It would not be a productive discussion. *forces self to turn away and agree to disagree*)

[netweight]

*blushes* You know I love you too, right? *hugs you*

I've been reading all the comments to this post. And I've come to the conclusion that one day I'm gonna have to make post or an essay or something to explain my perspective on the whole Angel(us)/Spike/Buffy deal. Because amazingly, I seem to be the only person to have one. I'll tie it up with the "the significance of the soul", why Angel and Angelus are basically the same guy, my views on the whole Angelus/William relationship, how love is not implicitly excluded of that relationship (nor of any relationship between vampires, for that matter) even if it is somewhat muddled by inherent Sub/dom factors, how Buffy/Spike is a somewhat twisted re-enactment of that dynamic, why Spike turned precisely to Buffy and how this is linked to the fact that they both share a complex past history with Angel/Angelus, how we should take into account that Buffy is, even if only subconsciously, trying to recapture what she had with Angel and how her feelings for Spike can't be dissociated – to an extent - of the fact these two beings, these vampires, share a connection she will never partake, perhaps not even ever understand, but towards which she will always be attracted for they are her dark equivalent and extremes will always eventually touch themselves.
And some other stuff. ;)
Me? Complex? No, no, no, you've got the wrong person.

(And yes, you're right, it wouldn't be a productive discussion. *loves you for being a mature person* Want a cookie?)

Eyeliner *whimper*

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Please write that all up sometime. I'd love to see you explain your reasoning for all of it.

[kitanotjames.livejournal.com]

Though, off topic, I have a hard time forcing myself not to jump into that thread and argue with Kita about the Seeing Red thing. It would not be a productive discussion. *forces self to turn away and agree to disagree*
***

Props for that. It's a very old discussion.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

It kind of scares me how emotional I get about some of this stuff, still. I feel kind of guilty, because if I directed these strong emotions toward like, social causes or something, maybe I could make the world a better place. Instead I argue on the internet about fictional vampires. But it does help me to understand why I think what I think, so I suppose that's valuable--self-awareness, and all.

But it bothers me that I get so upset over this stuff. It's just a TV show, and it's over, and nothing I say will change anything. But sometimes my whole day can get ruined because I'm sad over something that happened to Spike.

Once, when I was ten or eleven, I read a series of V.C. Andrews novels and cried myself to sleep for a week afterward because I was so upset about what happened to one of the characters. So I suppose being over-involved in fiction is nothing new. Probably not very healthy, though. Maybe it strikes too close to something really personal, and I'm trying to deal with real personal issues through the lense of the fiction that mirrors them?

Just thinking out loud. Er, onscreen. Sorry.

[kitanotjames.livejournal.com]

I think that's common to a lot of us. On my good days, I chalk it up to being imaginative, which helps as an artist and a writer. On my bad days, I just assume I'm insane.

But it's been me since childhood. Some books I could never read more than once, some movies that still make me cry even after seeing them multiple times, and some characters from someone else's universe that manage to come live in *my* head. Namely Buffy, Angel, and occasionally Connor. (I can write Spike, but he doesn't make me cry.)

In any case. You're hardly alone.