(no subject)

[rusty_halo]

I got woken a half hour early today because of jackhammers. Jackhammers! Right outside my building. I was thinking (as I held the pillow uselessly over my ears) that if I went outside and killed the construction workers, I could probably get off on temporary insanity. On account of being driven insane by jackhammers at eight in the morning.

That was a crappy way to wake up.

London Hellmouth got recommended on BBF. Yay! If you had trouble getting to it yesterday, it should be working fine now, so check it out. Wonderful story.

Also, Carolyn Claire's Thirst completely kicks ass as well. Spike/Xander, post-Gift, very creepy and sexy. She does a really wonderful job of creating a place and an atmosphere and a mood ... you really have to read it to get what I mean.

I have so much wonderful stuff to archive right now; did I mention how glad I am that Spike's on Angel? But I'm spacing it out, because if I archive everything at once, some stories will slip through unnoticed. So ... going slow. (If you're waiting for me to archive something, that's why it might take a little while.) I wonder if I archived too many long stories at once in the last few days ... is it too much to read? (For those who usually read a lot of what I archive.) Just curious if anyone has an opinion. I worry about these things.

Also, deborahmm has some interesting thoughts here on the kink thing, inspired by posts by eliade and thebratqueen. I don't entirely agree with deborahmm's view of Spike (though I do agree with a lot of what she said). Her post is interesting because I've been thinking about a lot of the same things lately, too. eliade and thebratqueen have both been posting very wonderful stories recently that don't turn me on at all, because they both hit what is, basically, my anti-kink. (Has nothing to do with the quality of their writing or anything like that, so no offense intended.) But basically, my anti-kink (something I can't enjoy no matter how well it's written) is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them. Like the idea of Spike (or Wesley) as whoever's "pet" just creeps me out completely, regardless of whether the "pet owner" is affectionate or cruel.

What's interesting to me is that there's such a fine line between kink and anti-kink for me. Because I totally think Spike is love's bitch, he needs his lover to to be the powerful one in the relationship (which was very true of Dru and Buffy; without that, he'll have no respect for them, as with Harmony). But Spike's also got a very strong sense of self (a lot of insecurity, but still a strong sense of self). When he wants something, he's not going to roll over and give it up. He'll always struggle, and he'll never let himself be totally dominated. He'll be in the submissive role because he likes it and needs it, but it's never total. (Like, even when he's totally in love with Dru and does her bidding most of the time, when he feels that she's lingering too much over Angel, he'll go behind her back and make a deal with the Slayer.)

So, I guess one way to explain the difference is, say there's a Spike/Angel story where the point is that Spike breaks and totally gives in to Angel. That's squicky. But say there's a story where Angel is still the powerful one, but Spike struggles and never stops snarking and demanding. He never totally gives in or accepts the situation. That's good. Or, something similar: Intervention totally hits a kink in a similar way. It's not romantic, but I just love how, even when he's being horribly tortured, Spike's making fun of Glory's hair and her big ass and completely refusing to give in at all. Whereas if he gave up and broke, it would just be sad and depressing.

Anyway, just some vague ideas. I wouldn't usually talk about kinks or any of that, because I'm horribly repressed. (Yes, I read gay vampire porn regularly and still manage to be horribly repressed. Not quite sure how that works.) But it's an interesting topic and deborahmm has a view similar to mine, so I figured I'd attempt to articulate my thoughts. Though my views may change later as this is probably the first time I've made any attempt to articulate them at all.

Comments

[ladyanne04.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that there isn't an argument to be made that Spike would be dominant. In the power structure of the Buffyverse, Spike is more powerful than Xander, especially post-chip, I would argue even pre-chip. Xander has heart, sure, but he's often been passive, only on rare occasions willing to take initiative, mostly content to sit and snipe witty comments from the background or bring the doughnuts. Don't get me wrong, I like Xander, and he could step up when needed, but he was deliberately drawn by the writers to be the everyman, the common man.

Spike however is not. He's a supernatural creature with greater strength, speed and healing ability. He's resilient in adapting to new situations and environments. Sure, he was probably even a bigger geek than Xander before being turned, but after? He might be a fool for love and impulsive, but he was never without power.

Which is why pairing him with other creatures of some power - with Buffy, with Willow, with Dru, or with Angel, doesn't necessarily put them in rigid pre-defined roles, but does level the playing field. To me, Spike and Xander are something like Buffy and Riley, in the end, one is just a human and one is more. And the differences that the non-human element makes in their nature ultimately would prevent them from ever being equal partners.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Have you read much S/X fic? Because I haven't seen that at all. I'm thinking of writers like, well, most of these: Annie Sewell-Jennings, Estepheia, Carolyn Claire, Fit of Pique, and so on.

Most S/X fic deals with the characters on equal ground, or negotiating ... there's very rarely a totally dominant one. A lot of S/X fic is set in season four, largely for that reason. Xander's lost his place, his identity, as the girls have gone off to college and left him behind. Spike's lost his identity because he's lost Drusilla and he's lost the ability to kill. Spike's supernatural status isn't benefitting him here; he can't even fight back. Xander could kick his ass. Plus, Spike's depending on Xander for food and shelter (in S4 and in early S7). At his worst, Spike's suicidal, shrinking his laundry, and wearing Xander's clothes while Xander laughs at him--he's very emotionally vulnerable. Xander ends up having a lot of power over him. But Spike has power too due to his age and experience. And he never gives in--he's still stealing Xander's lamp and mocking his ineffectiveness.

I just don't see the rigidly pre-defined roles at all. There are sometimes fics where one is dominant and the other is submissive, but the general trend that I've noticed (not that I'm a complete authority, but I read a hell of a lot of fic) is that Spike/Xander fics tend toward equality, where Spike/Angel fics tend toward Angel as the dominant one.

[ladyanne04.livejournal.com]

See that's the thing. I've read a fair amount, and if you focus on a narrow time frame in S4, from the time Spike is placed with Xander until he finds he can kill demons and then locates his own crypt, which is really a very narrow time space of a few episodes, you have them both in a lost, confused state and I would agree with everything you've said. But Spike also lives with Giles, is clearly seen lodging and being fed there as much or more than with Xander, Giles is in a similar state of flux, jobless, confused about his identity and his whole life purpose, yet that's not seen often (though as with every pairing there are some out there) as an equal relationship or one without pre-defined roles. And if anything, it's closer to being one, because of age and interests, than Spike and Xander.

I don't think there are rigid pre-defined roles necessarily in any relationship within this universe, because at least from my reading, what often attracts women to slash is the idea of equality in relationships just as you suggest - there is no rigid male and female role of the type you would often find in a romance - generally with more powerful males and less powerful females, instead with two males, you erase the gender distinction which implies those strengths and weaknesses. But BtVS has so many powerful females that the dynamic is shifted as a whole, because almost everyone how some sort of power. Except really Xander. And so while Spike gets out of the basement, and begins forging a new identity during S4, Xander doesn't. He cycles through dead end jobs, and is nagged and kicked around by Anya. So their positions, their temperments, don't lend themselves to an equality of relationship because of who they both are in the long term.

Now you can twist things in fic, you can change the parameters, you can go from one moment in time and set them up as equals. I've read S/X where they encounter each other outside of Sunnydale, where their memories are wiped, etc. I've read fic that focuses heavily on that basement period. But when viewing the characters and their development as a whole within the boundaries of canon, Spike appears to be the more dominant of the two. And a fair amount of S/X fic that I've read does cast Spike in a very manipulative role where he seduces Xander for his own purposes, even in that S4 framework, playing up that part of him.

So I can't see S/X as an inherently equal pairing, anymore than any other pairing in BtVS can be cast as an equal pairing, and possibly less. The fact that both go through an identity crisis and feel powerless is hardly novel, all the characters have at various points. And their open hostility to each other in canon has always made them a difficult pairing, unless the story is crafted to feed off how that hostility changes.

I would agree there is more equality in S/X fic than in S/A, virtually all S/A does seem to make Angel dominant. But a fair amount of S/X makes Spike dominant as well, either overtly or through his underlying manipulations.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

while Spike gets out of the basement, and begins forging a new identity during S4, Xander doesn't. He cycles through dead end jobs, and is nagged and kicked around by Anya. So their positions, their temperments, don't lend themselves to an equality of relationship because of who they both are in the long term.

I see the opposite. In early season five, Xander gets a nice apartment and a better job. In "The Replacement," he realizes that he's capable of adulthood and responsibility. Throughout season five he grows comfortably, and though he grows darker in season six, he's still powerful. In season seven, we see him confident and healthy, striding around in a suit and a better job. Emotionally healthy, missing Anya but ready to move on, being supportive to Buffy and Dawn.

Spike, meanwhile, falls for his worst enemy, mopes around desperately wanting her, gets tortured for her, breaks down when she dies, spends the summer taking care of her sister (with no emotional support, unlike Xander who has Anya and the Scoobies), is ostracized from the group when she returns, becomes her fucktoy, has a mental breakdown, gets a soul, goes (more) insane, spends early season seven in the school basement being haunted, moves in with Xander *again* while still incredibly emotionally fragile, gets tortured by the First Evil, gets chained up in Buffy's basement....

Basically, throughout seasons six and seven especially, Xander is the more powerful one. Spike still has the chip through most of this period, so Xander could kick his ass. Spike is dependent on the Scoobies to not kill him, and in season seven he's again dependent on them for food and shelter. Emotionally, Xander is the healthier one, because Spike's an absolute mess most of this time.

I see quite a bit of evidence that *Xander* could be the powerful one just as easily as Spike. And I like that this makes their relationship more equal. And from what I've seen (minus a few exceptions that go in both directions) it does.

[ladyanne04.livejournal.com]

I understand what you're saying about Xander's progression into adulthood and subsequent maturation. And I think I see why you would view Xander as equally powerful or more powerful than Spike. But in contemplating this, I kept coming back to the premise and wanted to ask - precisely how would you define an "equal" relationship? Equal in what terms and in what manner precisely? And conversely, what precisely would make an unequal relationship?