(no subject)

[rusty_halo]

I got woken a half hour early today because of jackhammers. Jackhammers! Right outside my building. I was thinking (as I held the pillow uselessly over my ears) that if I went outside and killed the construction workers, I could probably get off on temporary insanity. On account of being driven insane by jackhammers at eight in the morning.

That was a crappy way to wake up.

London Hellmouth got recommended on BBF. Yay! If you had trouble getting to it yesterday, it should be working fine now, so check it out. Wonderful story.

Also, Carolyn Claire's Thirst completely kicks ass as well. Spike/Xander, post-Gift, very creepy and sexy. She does a really wonderful job of creating a place and an atmosphere and a mood ... you really have to read it to get what I mean.

I have so much wonderful stuff to archive right now; did I mention how glad I am that Spike's on Angel? But I'm spacing it out, because if I archive everything at once, some stories will slip through unnoticed. So ... going slow. (If you're waiting for me to archive something, that's why it might take a little while.) I wonder if I archived too many long stories at once in the last few days ... is it too much to read? (For those who usually read a lot of what I archive.) Just curious if anyone has an opinion. I worry about these things.

Also, deborahmm has some interesting thoughts here on the kink thing, inspired by posts by eliade and thebratqueen. I don't entirely agree with deborahmm's view of Spike (though I do agree with a lot of what she said). Her post is interesting because I've been thinking about a lot of the same things lately, too. eliade and thebratqueen have both been posting very wonderful stories recently that don't turn me on at all, because they both hit what is, basically, my anti-kink. (Has nothing to do with the quality of their writing or anything like that, so no offense intended.) But basically, my anti-kink (something I can't enjoy no matter how well it's written) is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them. Like the idea of Spike (or Wesley) as whoever's "pet" just creeps me out completely, regardless of whether the "pet owner" is affectionate or cruel.

What's interesting to me is that there's such a fine line between kink and anti-kink for me. Because I totally think Spike is love's bitch, he needs his lover to to be the powerful one in the relationship (which was very true of Dru and Buffy; without that, he'll have no respect for them, as with Harmony). But Spike's also got a very strong sense of self (a lot of insecurity, but still a strong sense of self). When he wants something, he's not going to roll over and give it up. He'll always struggle, and he'll never let himself be totally dominated. He'll be in the submissive role because he likes it and needs it, but it's never total. (Like, even when he's totally in love with Dru and does her bidding most of the time, when he feels that she's lingering too much over Angel, he'll go behind her back and make a deal with the Slayer.)

So, I guess one way to explain the difference is, say there's a Spike/Angel story where the point is that Spike breaks and totally gives in to Angel. That's squicky. But say there's a story where Angel is still the powerful one, but Spike struggles and never stops snarking and demanding. He never totally gives in or accepts the situation. That's good. Or, something similar: Intervention totally hits a kink in a similar way. It's not romantic, but I just love how, even when he's being horribly tortured, Spike's making fun of Glory's hair and her big ass and completely refusing to give in at all. Whereas if he gave up and broke, it would just be sad and depressing.

Anyway, just some vague ideas. I wouldn't usually talk about kinks or any of that, because I'm horribly repressed. (Yes, I read gay vampire porn regularly and still manage to be horribly repressed. Not quite sure how that works.) But it's an interesting topic and deborahmm has a view similar to mine, so I figured I'd attempt to articulate my thoughts. Though my views may change later as this is probably the first time I've made any attempt to articulate them at all.

Comments

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

But basically, my anti-kink (something I can't enjoy no matter how well it's written) is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them.

YES. I have a real problem with that, too. It...well, frankly, it makes my skin crawl. The whole 'slave' thing? Not only "not sexy" to me - it so turns my stomach that I can't finish fics that have the merest hints of it in them. So I don't read it. I'm sure some of my personal kinks (men in eyeliner, excessive sexual talkiness, the whole vampire thing) turn some folks off, as well.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Mmmm ... men in eyeliner. Yes. And the vampire thing -- yet another reason I'm so virulently opposed to human Spike. Taking away the vampire aspect takes away most of the appeal.

You know, I can even read a slave Spike fic occasionally, if it's very beautifully written and insightful about the characters. But where I can tell I'm supposed to feel turned on or whatever, I just feel sad and want to give poor Spike a big hug.

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

yet another reason I'm so virulently opposed to human Spike. Taking away the vampire aspect takes away most of the appeal.

Dunno. I have this whole scenario in my head that I wouldn't mind seeing on Angel - where Spike gets resurrected as human, and has to be afraid of Drusilla. What a rich mine of emotional storytelling that could be. I could get behind that arc (but only if they verged from the Darla arc and didn't re-vamp him).

That said, I've had this thing about vampires since I was very, very young indeed, so...::grin::

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Ah ha! You've hit on my true anti-kink. No matter who writes it or how well-written it is, I cannot stand human Spike. Uh uh, no way, no how. I can recognize that it's well-written and respect the author's talent, but it's a complete and utter squick almost to the point of making me physically ill.

It's hard to explain but it sort of ties into the anti-slavery kink as well. Part of the Spike I love is the demon, and if you take away the demon it's like giving him a lobotomy, then forcing him to live on as something utterly changed, doing things he'd never have done before. And having power over the self taken away (through drugs, brain damage, mental breakdowns, happiness in slavery, etc.) is something that I've always been terrified of and horrified by more than anything else.

[hecatehatesthat.livejournal.com]

I can even read a slave Spike fic occasionally, if it's very beautifully written and insightful about the characters. But where I can tell I'm supposed to feel turned on or whatever, I just feel sad and want to give poor Spike a big hug.

This is exactly how I feel about the slave-thing. Or even Spike being utterly broken, with no slavery involved. Spike too broken to snark is just depressing beyond measure. And I find it's actually harder to deal with in really well-written stories, because it's completely believable and much harder to write off as someone manipulating his character to fulfill a kink, even if that's what it is. Gah. I really hate that.

I should have known I could count on you to disagree openly with the slave-kink. Just reading all the descriptions of how much people love Spike-the-dead-inside-slave has been kind of depressing. I need my Spike to at least have his illusions of independence.

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

I need my Spike to at least have his illusions of independence.

My Spike? Might love unwisely and too well, but he's always his own man.

Now, I'll own up to sometimes finding the violence sexy (a la Fool For Love, in the train sequence), and sometimes finding the predation sexy (it's a vampire thing. Hey, I make no brief for my weird vampire fixation.) But slavery? Not sexy at.all. to me.

I don't particularly care for torture stuff in my fic, either, but don't mind it when it actually serves the story (rather than just being gratuitous shocking stuff).

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Well, it's not that I disagree with it, exactly, because it's all very personal and a matter of opinion. I don't have anything against the people who do like it; that's their right and I'm making no value judgements. It's just something that I, for personal reasons, find squicky. I think the reason they like it probably doesn't have anything to do with the reason I dislike it.

But yeah ... Spike too broken to snark is just so depressing. It's sort of why S7 depressed me, actually. He was so broken that he couldn't see through Buffy's bullshit anymore; he was just her pathetic slave, thanking her for crumbs, praising her without seeing her flaws anymore, when he used to be so perceptive. Poor deluded fool. I pitied him, but I stopped liking him.

[rahirah]

I'm with ya there. I can read fics with elements of it, but they make me itchy, and if it gets too blatant, then I generally give up on the story.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

I've always seen Spike as someone who can get battered, almost destroyed, but doesn't give up. I can't see him as a slave and enjoying it either. It just isn't Spike.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Exactly. What was Angel's original description of Spike? "Once he starts something, he won't give up until everything in his path is dead" or something like that?

That's my Spike. Torture, humiliation, abandonment, insanity, rejection -- he gets through it all and always stands up again. He adapts and deals and rebuilds himself over and over -- Dru leaves him, he gets chipped, he gets a soul ... and he always survives and recreates himself. It's one of the aspects I most love about him. I can't stand stories that take that away.

[rahirah]

Spike as emotional Weeble. >:) That's my boy.

[miggy.livejournal.com]

I don't agree with you -- for once! -- on this particular anti-kink; I much prefer the Spike you describe, but I can also get into the slave stuff when it's written just right. (And can do so with any character, really; not sure what in my psyche clicks into it.) What stands as MY anti-kink are happyfluffy fics that attempt to gloss over everything wrong with a situation and have everyone singing a Disney tune by the time the story closes. If I sense it's coming, I have to put a story down. I know by now that finishing the story will make me want to yell at the author, "You think you've changed ANYTHING? You don't think the exact same patterns will emerge five hours later? You didn't address any underlying issues, you just polished a lump of dirt and called it a diamond!"

I guess willful delusion is my anti-kink.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Hmm ... I agree with you about how annoying that is. Though a lot of times I can read and enjoy the story, then just roll my eyes at the end. So it's not quite an anti-kink.

Well, with the exception of writers trying to gloss over Buffy's abusive behavior with "Buffy and Spike have sex, everything's perfect, the end!" But that's more my specific anti-Buffy anti-kink than a general willful delusion anti-kink.

[rahirah]

Well, I'd classify that as 'bad writing' myself, rather than a kink...

[miggy.livejournal.com]

I've read some beautifully-written stuff that was entirely focused on making everyone happy for the single moment that made up "THE END," so it's not just done by bad writers. It's done by good and bad writers alike who can't handle reality, it feels more like.

But then, one of my kinks is dealing with the realities of aging in a mortal/immortal relationship and how it's all going to end and everyone will be sad and isn't it terrible so we'd best well use the time we have, so I have a lower tolerance for avoidance than most.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Don't worry; if there are too many stories, there's always the right-click-save-as and our sturdy hard-drive. & ;-) I imagine it's easier to archive them as they come: less trouble for you thataway.

(Has nothing to do with the quality of their writing or anything like that, so no offense intended.) But basically, my anti-kink (something I can't enjoy no matter how well it's written) is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them. Like the idea of Spike (or Wesley) as whoever's "pet" just creeps me out completely, regardless of whether the "pet owner" is affectionate or cruel.

Yes! Absolutely-- one of the few things I find squicky.

What's interesting to me is that there's such a fine line between kink and anti-kink for me. Because I totally think Spike is love's bitch, he needs his lover to to be the powerful one in the relationship (which was very true of Dru and Buffy; without that, he'll have no respect for them, as with Harmony). But Spike's also got a very strong sense of self (a lot of insecurity, but still a strong sense of self). When he wants something, he's not going to roll over and give it up. He'll always struggle, and he'll never let himself be totally dominated. He'll be in the submissive role because he likes it and needs it, but it's never total. (Like, even when he's totally in love with Dru and does her bidding most of the time, when he feels that she's lingering too much over Angel, he'll go behind her back and make a deal with the Slayer.)

So very true. Just another fascinating facet of the Spike mosaic, this contradictory nature. Because *within* this dynamic, he will, occasionally, strive to dominate-- see Buffy in Dead Things (the balcony scene) or Dru in Lover's Walk ("I'll torture her until she comes back to me.")-- and/or be the protector-- see Dru in general, especially after the events in Prague, Buffy even back in Fool for Love, the beginning of Season Six, and the end of Season Seven, and, of course, Dawn in Season Five/Six.

Or, something similar: Intervention totally hits a kink in a similar way. It's not romantic, but I just love how, even when he's being horribly tortured, Spike's making fun of Glory's hair and her big ass and completely refusing to give in at all. Whereas if he gave up and broke, it would just be sad and depressing.

No kidding. For all my kinks, I actually abhor extreme violence and pain-- it's part and parcel of a vampire show, I know, and I don't mind all kinds of mental anguish and deep angst...but give me physical torture, and I just feel ill. Still, I love this episode: as you point out, Spike's behaviour in Intervention can counter this and give the storyline a different spin-- make it about courage and a stubborn sense of self instead of resignation and submission...

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

he will, occasionally, strive to dominate

I don't think he's ever comfortable with it, though, and I don't think it's his first choice. The examples you cite both came after he'd tried quite a few other options and found them unsuccessful, and so was trying to please the woman based on what he guessed she'd like/find effective. Like, begging and pleading for Dru to come back to him didn't work, so he finally decided to show her that he was still "evil enough" and to emulate Angel, the dominant one, who Dru really wanted. But he was shaping himself to please her, torturing her because it's what she wanted. Same with the Dead Things balcony scene: he'd tried sitting with her quietly, he'd tried listening and being supportive, he'd tried to get her to open up, he'd tried "we have to talk," he'd tried "if I can't have all of you, I'd rather--," etc. So he tried turning the tables, being dominant as Dru used to want, and as Buffy was treating him. But it wasn't his first choice, and it wasn't all that natural--it didn't really fit with his behavior before or after.

You're right about the protector thing, though. He protects, but not in a dominating way. He doesn't try to make their choices for them, like Angel would, "for her own good." He's more likely to just listen and be there and do whatever she tells him to do, rather than telling her what to do.

make it about courage and a stubborn sense of self instead of resignation and submission

Yes, exactly. I don't know a thing about torture in RL and I really don't want to know. But I can appreciate it fic if it's used as you describe, like in Intervention.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

I don't think he's ever comfortable with it, though, and I don't think it's his first choice.

No, definitely not his first choice; then again, it's definitely something he sees as a possible approach to a relationship. That's probably the bottom (Heh. She said bottom!) of it: being dominant isn't an unfamiliar idea (if only after having witnessed it for so long, re: Angelus), however, it's an *instrument*, not the underlying desire itself.

The examples you cite both came after he'd tried quite a few other options and found them unsuccessful, and so was trying to please the woman based on what he guessed she'd like/find effective. Like, begging and pleading for Dru to come back to him didn't work, so he finally decided to show her that he was still "evil enough" and to emulate Angel, the dominant one, who Dru really wanted.

Yes, I agree.

But he was shaping himself to please her, torturing her because it's what she wanted. Same with the Dead Things balcony scene: he'd tried sitting with her quietly, he'd tried listening and being supportive, he'd tried to get her to open up, he'd tried "we have to talk," he'd tried "if I can't have all of you, I'd rather--," etc. So he tried turning the tables, being dominant as Dru used to want, and as Buffy was treating him. But it wasn't his first choice, and it wasn't all that natural--it didn't really fit with his behavior before or after.

You're absolutely right, but to me, pressure and psychological violence are viable options to Spike-- or were, pre-soul, at least--, i.e. he didn't have to torture himself to do it as he could not see the ethical/moral wrong of such a behaviour (notwithstanding his love and more caring, tender side)...but of course, he was neither comfortable with nor very good at it.

[netweight]

I was starting to think I was the only one who didn't get that "slave" kink. I've read the stories. I can't recognize the character. I can't relate. And yes, they ultimately squick me.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

See! That's why I originally had such a hard time with Spike/Angel. Because so much Spike/Angel is Angel being dominant and Spike being submissive, using the "sire/childe" thing as a way to take away all Spike's independence and make him Angel's slave. deborahmm addresses this in her post when she talks about how there was this original view of Spike as always secondary to Angel, hot and useful as a sexual object, but he always has to be "put in his place." Any fic that maintains that Spike needs to be "put in his place" makes me want to vomit. It plays on all those racist, judgemental "soulless vampires are the less-than-human 'other'" aspects of the whole soul/no-soul divide that make me angry and sick.

I know not all S/A is like that, and I'm definitely starting to develop an appreciation for it now based on what I see onscreen. (Which is that Angel's more powerful, but there is no way in hell Spike's going to submit to him.) But originally it was a big stumbling block, because the slave kink tends to be very prominent in S/A fic. The writers looking for a more equal relationship tend to gravitate toward Spike/Xander, which is a dynamic I've always preferred for that reason.

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

The writers looking for a more equal relationship tend to gravitate toward Spike/Xander

See, I can't see S/X being an equal relationship, either, though I tend to view S/A as being one (at least now, if not in their past dealings).

To me, S/X have such hostility towards one another, canonically speaking, that there's no way that it won't be a destructive, power-over relationship.

And that's why I like S/B on paper, because they can have that Beatrice-and-Benedict relationship (which is a secret kink of mine) that's all push-and-pull and sexual tension and witty repartee and striking sparks from one another. ::sigh::

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Well, I think that the mutual hostility is what makes for the equality of the S/X relationship. Neither is going to give in to the other, and they both have very similar barriers to work through. They also both have enough advantages and disadvantages that neither is in the inherently inferior position, whereas with S/A, Angel's always in the superior position.

S/X, to me, is like early S/B (back when it seemed like S/B could overcome their issues together and grow together in an equal, but challenging, relationship) -- the hostility, the repressed sexual tension. Only instead of Spike having to get over that he's fallen for his mortal enemy, he has to deal with that he's fallen for an annoying white-hat kid. And Xander, like Buffy, has to get over that he's fallen for a vampire, a "thing" that he's supposed to hate. (And then he has to deal with "is Spike really a 'thing'?" which is neat to see.) Oh, and the fact that Spike's a guy (whereas I doubt Angel would care--and I think it's interesting to see Xander struggling with issues of sexuality.) And, as with S/B, deep down S/X have a lot in common, though they wouldn't want to admit it--they're both outsiders, they're both insecure, they both surround themselves with powerful women, they both struggle to fit in and find a place, etc.

So that's what I mean about S/X being equal--they struggle and go back and forth and it could go either way; you don't get the instant "Angel's on top" that you get with S/A most of the time.

[ladyanne04.livejournal.com]

To me, S/X have such hostility towards one another, canonically speaking, that there's no way that it won't be a destructive, power-over relationship.

I have to agree with you - this has always been a major stumbling block for me from a canon perspective. I've read S/X in a manipulative relationship that made sense - but as equal partners? Just can't buy it. Schmoopy Spander never seems to ring true to me.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

It doesn't have to be schmoopy for them to be equal partners; quite the opposite, it requires that they deal with their issues and start to see each other as individuals.

The thing is, there is no automatic "this one is dominant" in their relationship. Who's going to have the power? They have to struggle over it, because it's not obvious. And that leads to a lot more complexity and character growth than a relationship with rigid, pre-defined power roles.

[ladyanne04.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that there isn't an argument to be made that Spike would be dominant. In the power structure of the Buffyverse, Spike is more powerful than Xander, especially post-chip, I would argue even pre-chip. Xander has heart, sure, but he's often been passive, only on rare occasions willing to take initiative, mostly content to sit and snipe witty comments from the background or bring the doughnuts. Don't get me wrong, I like Xander, and he could step up when needed, but he was deliberately drawn by the writers to be the everyman, the common man.

Spike however is not. He's a supernatural creature with greater strength, speed and healing ability. He's resilient in adapting to new situations and environments. Sure, he was probably even a bigger geek than Xander before being turned, but after? He might be a fool for love and impulsive, but he was never without power.

Which is why pairing him with other creatures of some power - with Buffy, with Willow, with Dru, or with Angel, doesn't necessarily put them in rigid pre-defined roles, but does level the playing field. To me, Spike and Xander are something like Buffy and Riley, in the end, one is just a human and one is more. And the differences that the non-human element makes in their nature ultimately would prevent them from ever being equal partners.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Have you read much S/X fic? Because I haven't seen that at all. I'm thinking of writers like, well, most of these: Annie Sewell-Jennings, Estepheia, Carolyn Claire, Fit of Pique, and so on.

Most S/X fic deals with the characters on equal ground, or negotiating ... there's very rarely a totally dominant one. A lot of S/X fic is set in season four, largely for that reason. Xander's lost his place, his identity, as the girls have gone off to college and left him behind. Spike's lost his identity because he's lost Drusilla and he's lost the ability to kill. Spike's supernatural status isn't benefitting him here; he can't even fight back. Xander could kick his ass. Plus, Spike's depending on Xander for food and shelter (in S4 and in early S7). At his worst, Spike's suicidal, shrinking his laundry, and wearing Xander's clothes while Xander laughs at him--he's very emotionally vulnerable. Xander ends up having a lot of power over him. But Spike has power too due to his age and experience. And he never gives in--he's still stealing Xander's lamp and mocking his ineffectiveness.

I just don't see the rigidly pre-defined roles at all. There are sometimes fics where one is dominant and the other is submissive, but the general trend that I've noticed (not that I'm a complete authority, but I read a hell of a lot of fic) is that Spike/Xander fics tend toward equality, where Spike/Angel fics tend toward Angel as the dominant one.

[ladyanne04.livejournal.com]

See that's the thing. I've read a fair amount, and if you focus on a narrow time frame in S4, from the time Spike is placed with Xander until he finds he can kill demons and then locates his own crypt, which is really a very narrow time space of a few episodes, you have them both in a lost, confused state and I would agree with everything you've said. But Spike also lives with Giles, is clearly seen lodging and being fed there as much or more than with Xander, Giles is in a similar state of flux, jobless, confused about his identity and his whole life purpose, yet that's not seen often (though as with every pairing there are some out there) as an equal relationship or one without pre-defined roles. And if anything, it's closer to being one, because of age and interests, than Spike and Xander.

I don't think there are rigid pre-defined roles necessarily in any relationship within this universe, because at least from my reading, what often attracts women to slash is the idea of equality in relationships just as you suggest - there is no rigid male and female role of the type you would often find in a romance - generally with more powerful males and less powerful females, instead with two males, you erase the gender distinction which implies those strengths and weaknesses. But BtVS has so many powerful females that the dynamic is shifted as a whole, because almost everyone how some sort of power. Except really Xander. And so while Spike gets out of the basement, and begins forging a new identity during S4, Xander doesn't. He cycles through dead end jobs, and is nagged and kicked around by Anya. So their positions, their temperments, don't lend themselves to an equality of relationship because of who they both are in the long term.

Now you can twist things in fic, you can change the parameters, you can go from one moment in time and set them up as equals. I've read S/X where they encounter each other outside of Sunnydale, where their memories are wiped, etc. I've read fic that focuses heavily on that basement period. But when viewing the characters and their development as a whole within the boundaries of canon, Spike appears to be the more dominant of the two. And a fair amount of S/X fic that I've read does cast Spike in a very manipulative role where he seduces Xander for his own purposes, even in that S4 framework, playing up that part of him.

So I can't see S/X as an inherently equal pairing, anymore than any other pairing in BtVS can be cast as an equal pairing, and possibly less. The fact that both go through an identity crisis and feel powerless is hardly novel, all the characters have at various points. And their open hostility to each other in canon has always made them a difficult pairing, unless the story is crafted to feed off how that hostility changes.

I would agree there is more equality in S/X fic than in S/A, virtually all S/A does seem to make Angel dominant. But a fair amount of S/X makes Spike dominant as well, either overtly or through his underlying manipulations.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

while Spike gets out of the basement, and begins forging a new identity during S4, Xander doesn't. He cycles through dead end jobs, and is nagged and kicked around by Anya. So their positions, their temperments, don't lend themselves to an equality of relationship because of who they both are in the long term.

I see the opposite. In early season five, Xander gets a nice apartment and a better job. In "The Replacement," he realizes that he's capable of adulthood and responsibility. Throughout season five he grows comfortably, and though he grows darker in season six, he's still powerful. In season seven, we see him confident and healthy, striding around in a suit and a better job. Emotionally healthy, missing Anya but ready to move on, being supportive to Buffy and Dawn.

Spike, meanwhile, falls for his worst enemy, mopes around desperately wanting her, gets tortured for her, breaks down when she dies, spends the summer taking care of her sister (with no emotional support, unlike Xander who has Anya and the Scoobies), is ostracized from the group when she returns, becomes her fucktoy, has a mental breakdown, gets a soul, goes (more) insane, spends early season seven in the school basement being haunted, moves in with Xander *again* while still incredibly emotionally fragile, gets tortured by the First Evil, gets chained up in Buffy's basement....

Basically, throughout seasons six and seven especially, Xander is the more powerful one. Spike still has the chip through most of this period, so Xander could kick his ass. Spike is dependent on the Scoobies to not kill him, and in season seven he's again dependent on them for food and shelter. Emotionally, Xander is the healthier one, because Spike's an absolute mess most of this time.

I see quite a bit of evidence that *Xander* could be the powerful one just as easily as Spike. And I like that this makes their relationship more equal. And from what I've seen (minus a few exceptions that go in both directions) it does.

[ladyanne04.livejournal.com]

I understand what you're saying about Xander's progression into adulthood and subsequent maturation. And I think I see why you would view Xander as equally powerful or more powerful than Spike. But in contemplating this, I kept coming back to the premise and wanted to ask - precisely how would you define an "equal" relationship? Equal in what terms and in what manner precisely? And conversely, what precisely would make an unequal relationship?

[netweight]

See! That's why I originally had such a hard time with Spike/Angel.

Yeah, I know. But, like I've already told you, most A/S fic out there is utter crap.

so much Spike/Angel is Angel being dominant and Spike being submissive, using the "sire/childe" thing as a way to take away all Spike's independence and make him Angel's slave. (...) there was this original view of Spike as always secondary to Angel, hot and useful as a sexual object, but he always has to be "put in his place."

The amazing thing is that I don't know where writers got that perspective because that is not, IMO the way the relationship is depicted in season 2. Spike? Submissive just for the sake of it? Ah frigging ah! I think not! Anyway, I've already made my perspective on this clear here. I think you've read it because it's on the "Conviction" review thread. But if you didn't there's the link. ;)

Anyway, you know where I stand - heck, you've archived my fic, haven't you? *g* I'd be surprised if we didn't agree on this. Now, that would be strange.

[ladyanne04.livejournal.com]

IMO the way the relationship is depicted in season 2. Spike? Submissive just for the sake of it? Ah frigging ah! I think not!

I'll second that. I know there are examples of Angel lording it over Spike while he's wheelchair bound, but Spike always had some animosity and anger in those moments, submissive or craving Angel's approval, he was not. Especially with the way things were played out in the Angel/Darla arc and the flashbacks of Angel S2 and Buffy S5, it almost seemed that the couples were revolving around each other without great impact at times. We never really see but a very few glimpses of Angelus and Spike, pre-soul, those moments are spent with Darla and Dru for the most part. The few times you do - like the the mineshaft scene, Spike is once again bucking authority. So the perception of Spike as submissive to Angel and craving his affections always struck me as odd and has been a turn-off for me in most of the S/A fics.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Yup, I agree with you. I love the complexity of the S/A relationship; it's really tragic when writers try to dumb it down. I think you're one of the writers who captures the complexity really well, without over-simplifying everything.

(Though, off topic, I have a hard time forcing myself not to jump into that thread and argue with Kita about the Seeing Red thing. It would not be a productive discussion. *forces self to turn away and agree to disagree*)

[netweight]

*blushes* You know I love you too, right? *hugs you*

I've been reading all the comments to this post. And I've come to the conclusion that one day I'm gonna have to make post or an essay or something to explain my perspective on the whole Angel(us)/Spike/Buffy deal. Because amazingly, I seem to be the only person to have one. I'll tie it up with the "the significance of the soul", why Angel and Angelus are basically the same guy, my views on the whole Angelus/William relationship, how love is not implicitly excluded of that relationship (nor of any relationship between vampires, for that matter) even if it is somewhat muddled by inherent Sub/dom factors, how Buffy/Spike is a somewhat twisted re-enactment of that dynamic, why Spike turned precisely to Buffy and how this is linked to the fact that they both share a complex past history with Angel/Angelus, how we should take into account that Buffy is, even if only subconsciously, trying to recapture what she had with Angel and how her feelings for Spike can't be dissociated – to an extent - of the fact these two beings, these vampires, share a connection she will never partake, perhaps not even ever understand, but towards which she will always be attracted for they are her dark equivalent and extremes will always eventually touch themselves.
And some other stuff. ;)
Me? Complex? No, no, no, you've got the wrong person.

(And yes, you're right, it wouldn't be a productive discussion. *loves you for being a mature person* Want a cookie?)

Eyeliner *whimper*

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Please write that all up sometime. I'd love to see you explain your reasoning for all of it.

[kitanotjames.livejournal.com]

Though, off topic, I have a hard time forcing myself not to jump into that thread and argue with Kita about the Seeing Red thing. It would not be a productive discussion. *forces self to turn away and agree to disagree*
***

Props for that. It's a very old discussion.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

It kind of scares me how emotional I get about some of this stuff, still. I feel kind of guilty, because if I directed these strong emotions toward like, social causes or something, maybe I could make the world a better place. Instead I argue on the internet about fictional vampires. But it does help me to understand why I think what I think, so I suppose that's valuable--self-awareness, and all.

But it bothers me that I get so upset over this stuff. It's just a TV show, and it's over, and nothing I say will change anything. But sometimes my whole day can get ruined because I'm sad over something that happened to Spike.

Once, when I was ten or eleven, I read a series of V.C. Andrews novels and cried myself to sleep for a week afterward because I was so upset about what happened to one of the characters. So I suppose being over-involved in fiction is nothing new. Probably not very healthy, though. Maybe it strikes too close to something really personal, and I'm trying to deal with real personal issues through the lense of the fiction that mirrors them?

Just thinking out loud. Er, onscreen. Sorry.

[kitanotjames.livejournal.com]

I think that's common to a lot of us. On my good days, I chalk it up to being imaginative, which helps as an artist and a writer. On my bad days, I just assume I'm insane.

But it's been me since childhood. Some books I could never read more than once, some movies that still make me cry even after seeing them multiple times, and some characters from someone else's universe that manage to come live in *my* head. Namely Buffy, Angel, and occasionally Connor. (I can write Spike, but he doesn't make me cry.)

In any case. You're hardly alone.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them.

See, to me those are two totally separate things. Someone wanting to let someone else have complete control over them? Sexy, in Mer world. At least in fiction. But someone wanting it *because* they have no sense of self, squicky. Big, big squick. Someone like that would be eaten up and destroyed by submission, and a dominant who wants a sub who'll be eaten up and destroyed is icky too.

But I don't at all believe that that's the only reason that someone *would* want that. I've got lots of room, in my mental model, for people who want to let someone else have complete control precisely because they have a strong sense of self and it is unthreatened by this, or by anything -- or even because it's *too* strong and this is what they need to balance it.

To me, so far, Pet is in the second category. For Spike, at least. It's a little too soon for me to say what's going on with Wes.

Which isn't to say you shouldn't be squicked by it. Your anti-kinks are your anti-kinks, and totally valid. Just saying it sounded to me like you're assuming that's the only motivation any character or person could have for such a desire, and I don't think that's true.

Mer

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

Someone wanting to let someone else have complete control over them? Sexy, in Mer world.

See, I find that just exactly as squicky as the other. Not sexy at all, more...scary, actually. I'd be just as horrified if someone wanted to submit to me as I would if someone wanted me to submit to them. ::shudders:: It's a personal anti-kink, absolutely. I well understand that some folks find it quite exciting (::waves to [Bad username or site: telaryn:: @ livejournal.com]). Not my cup of tea at all, but hey - more tea for you, then. :)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I should've been more clear; I didn't mean to imply that the two always go together. That's why I added the "no sense of self" part, because I can see how someone would choose to be submissive, and that doesn't bother me quite so much. It's when someone is so broken or so lacking a sense of self that they just let or want someone else to totally control them.

I stopped reading Pet pretty quickly, and what bothered me wasn't the Spike part. It was Angel ordering Wesley around, I think in part 2; it just totally and completely squicked me. Reading it, I wanted to beat Angel's face in. I just hated it. It was totally an emotional reaction, and in writing this I was sort of trying to figure out why that is.

I can't imagine myself ever doing that or ever letting someone else do that to me, and if someone tried to do that to me, I'd never ever submit. But then, I've always had issues with authority, too; I'll do what someone says if I approve of it and understand why. But I'll never, ever blindly do something just because someone else tells me to, and I get really squicked when people blindly follow orders.

I think people always, always have to question what others tell them to do; it's essential that they make their own choices based on their own ethics and not follow unless it's something that they understand and accept. I just see this type of behavior leading to peer pressure, bullying, ostracizing people who are different, watching others be persecuted and not speaking out. Watching horrible and wrong things happen and not doing anything about it because you don't question. Maybe my squick is really people obeying without questioning. And one of the things I love about Spike is that he always questions, even when he's totally in love he questions his lover when he thinks she is deluding herself of making a mistake. If you take that away, you take away something that I love most about him--his refusal to blindly follow. (And I think part of the reason I dislike Angel is that he expects people to blindly follow him, and he tends to blindly follow others. He bows to fate whereas Spike challenges it.)

Eh. See, it's totally personal. I don't think there's anything wrong with people who enjoy reading it, and they probably like it for different reasons than the reasons I dislike it. I'm just trying to figure out why it bothers me so much. I didn't mean to make any assumptions, as I'm the first to admit I'm completely clueless about the whole dominance/submission thing; it's very foreign to my experience and way of thinking.

[irfikos.livejournal.com]

oh, wow. interesting.

dare i even chime in? i think i still may be trying to pinpoint exactly what my kinks are. i know the bdsm stuff definitely appeals more to me than fluffy happy la-la-la sex.

i gravitate to the stuff wherein my favorite character is forced to submit to someone else but yeah, i don't like for them to be completely broken. i like the characters for who they are. i like to think about how they'd react under extreme circumstances. if spike is subjugated and broken to the point where he is no longer spike at all, then it loses its appeal. i will, however, read the breaking down parts, where he's still in there. i can't just jump into a fic where suddenly spike is this puppydog with no will of his own. i have to know the process by which such a thing happened, and if it's realistic, then i can enjoy it. if i can't buy the reasoning for spike being so submissive, i can't buy him as submissive in that particular scenario. i don't really care much for stories wherein spike is willingly completely submissive. i agree, it seems out of character for him to just give in entirely. on some small level, he would rebel (imo).

as some may have guessed, i am not easily squicked. i like spike, and i really like suffering spike. i can understand how physical or psychological torture can bother some people and i have no idea why i like it so much. i can only say that i have always been that way. and it's nice to find out that there are others who share this particular kink.

and it's important to note that this isn't the only kind of fic i'll read. if i were to limit myself to reading only one type of fic, wow... i'd sure be missing out on a lot.

also... boys in eyeliner {drools}. i just need to find some good fics where punk!spike is enslaved and/or tortured horribly. is that so wrooong?

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

i just need to find some good fics where punk!spike is enslaved and/or tortured horribly. is that so wrooong?

Well, let me know if you find any where Punk!Spike eats everyone and fucks Drusilla on their graves. I'll take those. ;)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I don't mind violence, torture, etc. as long as Spike doesn't give in. But once he gives in or is broken, it's icky. Pathetic and sad. I think Buffy broke Spike in S6 (and the soul finished the job) which is part of why I couldn't stand the character in S7.

But anyway, I think we're coming from a similar place. Suffering Spike, good. Broken Spike, bad.

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

Total control that is monopolized for no other reason than that the dominant character needs to control others in order to feel better about himself (i.e. for selfish reasons) - that I cannot abide. Which is why TBQ's story is totally anti-kink for me.

TBQ's prose is lovely, the voices ok, but IMHO the charactersation is eh. Her Spike does not have anything in common with the one we've seen on BtVS S7 or on AtS. I haven't actually seen evidence of the soul.

I can see scenarios in which authority gives structure to a life/personality that has been shattered and traumatised, in which one character exercises control not because he or she enjoys it but because it's necessary. But I would always have to feel that the hierarchy is temporary and mutable.

Now *my* kink is equality. Shifts in power have to be negotiated. Power can be transferred and granted, but not usurped. I don't even mind the incest kink that permeates TBQ's fic, because I can see how a replacement father can have a certain erotic appeal to a certain frame of mind. I do mind the way Spike supposedly enjoys pain. I didn't see him enjoy Glory's torture. Spike is a wuss, he doesn't enjoy pain, which makes his resilience in 'Intervention' more noteworthy and admirable. At least that's how I see him.

But then again TBQ was quite open about the fact that she's writing her own kink. *shrug* I don't think kink-centric fic makes good fic just because the prose is well-crafted. But then I liked eliade's 'Subtleties, and those were indulgent too, just closer to something I can relate to. Objectivity is difficult when it comes to kink. :-)
Fortunately, nobody forces us to read or like everything that's out there. I may admire the craft and can be emotionally cold at the same time....

[mogens.livejournal.com]

Now *my* kink is equality. Shifts in power have to be negotiated. Power can be transferred and granted, but not usurped.

This is my kink too. deborahmm's and Laura's posts got me thinking about what kind of fics I like. My favorites, no matter what the pairing, portray the two (or three) in question as equals. While one person can have more power at the time the story takes place, I also want there to be potential for the balance to shift in the future. Stories in which everyone's roles are defined and each character serves a specific, unchanging function (slave, father replacement, fuck buddy, rebound partner, one and only everlasting love) do not have the same appeal for me as ones where the characters go in with certain expectations and come out thinking and feeling something different.

[riddering.livejournal.com]

But basically, my anti-kink (something I can't enjoy no matter how well it's written) is a character having little sense of self that they want to let someone else have complete control over them. Like the idea of Spike (or Wesley) as whoever's "pet" just creeps me out completely, regardless of whether the "pet owner" is affectionate or cruel.


Aha! I love your thoughts on this and I quite agree. After reading the stories you talked about I was left with a unsettled feeling. I really cannot imagine (or don't want to) Spike getting to a place where he's broken, he's lost the wily asshole within. It doesn't appeal to me because the story takes away everything about Spike that I love. I might as well read about Joe the Slave then.

Similarly, I won't read stories that ship Spike/someone-other-than-Buffy but include the same plot of using him for sex. Bleh.

In my mind, Spike is love's bitch as he has demonstrated numerous times. But. There will always be a part of him, the independent bastard streak, that his partner can't touch. So he is able to knock Dru out in Becoming 2 and forcefully tell Buffy exactly who is to blame in Blood Ties.

Or, something similar: Intervention totally hits a kink in a similar way. It's not romantic, but I just love how, even when he's being horribly tortured, Spike's making fun of Glory's hair and her big ass and completely refusing to give in at all. Whereas if he gave up and broke, it would just be sad and depressing.

That is it exactly. Whenever I think of the highlight of all that is Spike, the scenes from that episode come to mind.

(I'm sorry if most of this is incoherent. My brain isn't working and I should have just pointed and said "pretty thoughts" but I can't shut myself up.)

[shapinglight]

I found it more difficult to ignore TBQ's story - or rather to read it disinteresdtedly - because it is well written, and that's just not a Spike I recognise, although he bears a lot of similarities to Spike in various B/A'er stories, who is basically Angel's lackey, and that's what he is here. He's fulfilling the Peter Capaldi man-servant role in Dangerous Liaisons. He's pimping out Wesley etc. It feels like a retreat to the distant past, to when Spike was pretty much of a cipher in Angel's shadow in most S/A fanfics. I just can't conceive of Spike giving up his emotional control to Angel for such a poor reason and I can't imagine him being satisfied with the punching bag role and not getting any emotional commitment in return. Much as I like Angel, however, I can - unfortunately - imagine him behaving in exactly the way he's described in this fic.

[Unknown site tag]'s fic doesn't bother me as much simply because Spike is so broken that he's basically unrecognisable, and although it may never be explained, something external has happened to cause that. He may want what he's getting from Wesley now, but he wouldn't if he was in his right mind. So there's an element of hurt in the comfort. In the other, we have Spike volunteering to be treated like shit, and I just find it very disturbing - especially after the season 6 Spike/Buffy relationship. I mean, this is Spike with a soul. He's been through that. Why would he suddenly forget everything?

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Yes, I feel the same way about TBQ's Spike. The thing that squicked me in that story was more Angel and Wesley; I dismissed the Spike characterization almost instantly because it's so completely foreign to me. I didn't recognize Spike in there at all, except for maybe a one-dimsional extrapolation of School Hard Spike. As you said, it's reminiscent of the very limited Spike that used to show up in early B/A fic. I realized when reading TBQ's review of Just Rewards that her view of Spike is just on a whole 'nother planet from mine. (Which has many different facets, as you can see from what I archive, but is never so limited.)

Not that that's a value judgement; everyone has different characters that they relate to and understand best. I'm sure that if I tried to write, say, Dawn, the Dawn fans would tell me I was being one-dimensional. 'Cause I don't see anything complex or interesting within that character.

[shapinglight]

I read what you said further upthread about being squicked by TBQ's Angel/Wesley, and wondered why that didn't really occur to me. I realised it's because I just cannot conceive of Wesley acting in that fashion and simply dismissed it as Not Wesley.

Her Spike however, because he's like a sort of Spike for Dummies version of the real Spike (by which I mean there were recognisable aspects of Spike in there, if filtered through a stuck in season 2 perception of him) disturbed me more.

However, I begin to wonder if that's the Spike we're going to end up with in AtS this season. Must be a reason why all the people who hated Trying to Change Spike (including the original Ducks) are so pleasd with what they've seen so far.