(no subject)

[rusty_halo]

I had a truly horrible week, and rather than ranting about RL stuff that no one wants to hear about, I'm going to rant about Buffyverse stuff.

Joss on the concept of "the soul"
From http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/16/readersopinions/16WHED.html

I would love to give you a more in-depth coherent explanation of my view of the soul, and if I had one I would. The soul and my concept of it are as ephemeral as anybody’s, and possibly more so. And in terms of the show, it is something that exists to meet the needs of convenience; the truth is sometimes you can trap it in a jar; the truth is sometimes someone without one seems more interesting than someone with one. I don’t think Clem has a soul, but he’s certainly a sweet guy. Spike was definitely kind of a soulful character before he had a soul, but we made it clear that there was a level on which he could not operate. Although Spike could feel love, it was the possessive and selfish kind of love that most people feel. The concept of real altruism didn’t exist for him. And although he did love Buffy and was moved by her emotionally, ultimately his desire to possess her led him to try and rape her because he couldn’t make the connection —- the difference between their dominance games and actual rape.

This just outrages me. Spike couldn't love selflessly without a soul? What the hell was "Intervention," then? What did he expect to get from that? He was ready and willing to DIE to protect Buffy and Dawn. In what world is that selfish? He couldn't possibly get anything out of it if he was dead.

What about the summer he spent protecting Dawn while Buffy was dead? How was that selfish? Buffy was dead, and Spike had no idea that she was going to be resurrected. What could he possibly expect to get from that?

And the attempted rape stuff is also bullshit; my response is here.

I'm kind of glad that Joss has a decreased role in AtS compared to his involvement with BtVS.

I'm also upset about the Buffy finale. Not so much that the show is ending, because I've been pretty disgusted with it this year and I'm glad it'll be over before it can get any worse. I only watch for Spike anyway, and he's moving to AtS, so I have nothing to be sad about. AtS is the more mature, adult show anyway, and it's not stuck always have to deal with that stupid "girl power" theme, so I'm looking forward to seeing how Spike fits in over there.

I'm sad because Spike is going to die. I know he'll be back, but still. We're going to have to watch him die. I don't deal well with films/shows/books etc in which my favorite character dies. I don't care how well done it is or how it fits the story or any of that. And I don't mind darkness in my entertainment; in fact, I prefer it. But not when my favorite character dies. The Terminator is one of my favorite films, but I almost never rewatch it because it upsets me so much. When I do rewatch it, it has to be a big production; I have to plan it in advance and get my emotions in check beforehand, because otherwise I'll be a complete wreck. When I was 10 or 11, I read this series of V.C. Andrews books in which my favorite character died at the end, and I was so heartbroken that I cried myself to sleep every night for weeks. (My parents were very freaked out). I'm not quite that bad anymore, but I still get very upset. I'm dreading the finale because I'll probably be in a sad mood for days afterward, and I don't know if I'll ever be able to watch BtVS with the same enjoyment again. I know this is dumb, but I can't help it. I'm just like that.

This isn't a comment on the actual story, because maybe Spike dying like that will be a good thing for his journey. This is just how I know I'm going to react regardless of how well written it is (or isn't).

(I kind of doubt that I'll like it, though, because I always loved that Spike wasn't some big prophesized "champion," he was just a guy trying his best. Plus, the idea of selflessness is not as appealing to me as it is to some people, because I've seen people I care about suffering and getting used and mistreated because they were trying to live up to some "selfless" ideal and others took advantage of that. I miss the Spike that looked out for himself, too.)

Comments

[diva-stardust.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that whole selfish love thing pisses me off. I've got in many arguments with people over that same thing.

And when I bring up stuff like how come he stuck around all summer, helped patrol and took care of Dawn, when he had absolutely no chance of getting laid (if they think that's all it was to him)...all they say is that he was "bored" and couldn't do anything else.

Blargh.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Some people are just so biased ... I don't know where they even get off claiming to be objective. Oh well. At least we know better. :)

[wickedprincess3.livejournal.com]

::claps::
I've been that Spike loved Drusilla and it wasn't just "selfish" because he put the need to protect Dru over his own desires. Since Dru was evil and Spike's desires were evil this cannot be seen by many as "love" I think they equate love with "good" or morally right. Which I disagree with.

The idea that he wasn't capable of "real" love (I have problems with the idea that "real love" is supposedly totally "selfless, but that's a whole 'nother rant) until he had the soul just bothers me. His moral compass is now different since I believe that Spike's pre-soul moral code boiled down to Angelus/Drusilla/Buffy approves or doesn't approve (he chose to follow the Buffy approves model Post-"Gift" since he still loved her and he had promised to protect Dawn and that meant trying to follow the Buffy approved model)

[witling.livejournal.com]

Aw. Sorry you had such a crap week. If you want, you can come over and drink beers out of the fridge, paint your toenails, and watch FX Best of Buffy tapes while I cook up some Wes/Angel for flaming_june.

Yeah, I know. But I may also make poppyseed cake...

Re: Spike's blatant altruism. Word.

Re: I always loved that Spike wasn't some big prophesized "champion," he was just a guy trying his best. Wordy word word. I commented on this to Peasant a while ago...in the context of Ars, actually, but whatever. I've always been most interested in the try-hard characters. The real angst and heroism (hate that word) and appeal, I think, is in seeing a basically good, average, limited person doing his best in untenable circumstances. That's how I feel about Coquette's Will (and Caitlin too, for what it's worth), and about Xander and Spike. That's the formula, for me. Good guy + untenable situation = interest and emotional involvement. Shiny multipowered champion type + anything = bleah.

I miss the Spike that looked out for himself, too. Wordy wordy word word word. Yeah. They're building a swayback Spike, which is so lame it's hard to believe the same crew is at the controls. Spike's a snarky prick who'd strike a match on your chin if you were handy when he needed a light, but he also has the capacity for respect and affection. He needs both, ME. I really don't want to see him covered in custard and whipped cream because the ME writing team has gone on some nutjob human potential trip. Oy.

So, um, yeah. In a word, word.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Hey, sounds like fun to me. Too bad you live all far away and stuff.

Mmmm... Wes/Angel. Gotta go read that...

Good guy + untenable situation = interest and emotional involvement. Shiny multipowered champion type + anything = bleah.

Yeah, exactly. I was going to write a whole big post about that, but you just covered it right there. The larger than life superheroes bore the hell out of me, and it frustrates me that our culture is so obsessed with them. They're completely unrealistic, and their existence usually requires this world of black and white morality where everything's clear cut and grey areas don't exist. But for me, all that really matters are the grey areas and the ambiguous characters, because that's what real life is. Black and white isn't even an interesting fantasy for me, because it just seems juvenile and silly.

I really don't want to see him covered in custard and whipped cream because the ME writing team has gone on some nutjob human potential trip.

Yup. It's like the writers are trying to keep the Buffyverse this very black and white moral world (and it just isn't, no matter how hard they try to force it). So Spike can't stay the wonderfully ambiguous character that we fell in love with; they have to either make him nasty and evil or some pure and perfect saint. Spike fans have been campaigning against Spike going evil, so ME made him into a saint instead. Bleech.

That's why I'm glad he's going to AtS; they seem much more open to the grey areas (like with Wes/Lilah), and I sincerely hope they apply that to Spike as well.

[onetwomany.livejournal.com]

The Spike was acting selfishly stuff by itself doesn't bother me that much. I'm a liberal in the classical tradition - I tend to think most actions are more or less self-interested in one sense or another. My problem is more that ME was determined to make Spike's actions seem that much less valuable than everybody else's no. matter. what. As you say, this is leading to some really stupid reasoning. Intervention? The Summer of Slaying? We're meant to watch these episodes and see Spike as evil and selfish and worse than the Scoobies. Er, okay. Whatever.

always loved that Spike wasn't some big prophesized "champion," he was just a guy trying his best.

Amen. I guess I've always thought of Spike as the 'small town vamp'. The one that protects his family (rest of the world be damned!) when the others go off to war. I guess the best I've been able to rationalise this is that Spike 'accidentally' got a shanshu that the powers planned to give to Angel. It's kinda like no one saw him coming - and that's very much the Spike I love.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Well yeah, actually I agree with you. I believe the whole concept of "selflessness" is an illusion that is impossible to actually achieve. Everything we do ends up being selfish in some way, even if it's just that we'd feel guilty if we didn't do it, or we get a sense of satisfaction out of doing something for someone else. But in the end it's always in some way self-serving.

And in that sense, yeah, Spike's choices are selfish in the way that everyone's are. When Buffy chose to kill herself to save the world, she was making a selfish choice; if she'd killed Dawn, the world would still have had a Chosen One to protect it. But Buffy couldn't live with the idea of killing her sister, so she killed herself instead.

When Willow devoted her energy to saving Tara in "The Gift" instead of getting Dawn off the tower or helping Buffy stop Glory, she made a "selfish" choice. And good for her; I would have done the same.

When Spike nearly died to save Buffy in "Intervention," he did so because he "couldn't live with [Buffy] being in that much pain". That's selfish, right, because it means Spike was saving himself from pain (although the fact that he would have felt pain simply because Buffy was in pain shows that he felt empathy for her).

What I hate is that Spike gets singled out as somehow being flawed because his love is "selfish," when in fact his love is just as pure as anyone's (or, their love is just as "impure" as his, if you want to look at it that way). What he did in "Intervention" is as close to selfless love as you can get. No, it wasn't entirely selfless, but love never is.

[http://users.livejournal.com/beingboring_/]

I guess the best I've been able to rationalise this is that Spike 'accidentally' got a shanshu that the powers planned to give to Angel. It's kinda like no one saw him coming - and that's very much the Spike I love.
Word, word, one thousand times word! This is the story line I'm hoping for next year [if we are dealing with human Spike]- and I like the echoes of early Buffy, the ideas if fighting fates. I think its also got awesome implications for Angel [the character].
Don't know our chances of getting it...

And I hope your RL improves! I'm typing using very positive keystrokes, thinking of you...