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Jun. 9th, 2003 02:50 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rusty_haloI'm going to write up a full con report in a bit, but first I have to get this rant off my chest. (I really apologize for the rant. I'm trying to be a more positive person and I don't want to be known as someone who is always bitching. But this has been upsetting me very badly all weekend and I'm hoping I'll feel better if I get it all written and posted. I promise to write a con report covering all the positive stuff in just a bit.)
James Marsters didn't say a single positive thing about Spike all weekend.
He said:
The Spike/Dawn friendship was supposed to horrify us because poor little Dawn was getting corrupted by Big Bad Spike.
It's our fault that Spike tried to rape Buffy. If we had just hated Spike in season six like we were supposed to, the writers wouldn't have had to write the bathroom scene to show us that we were wrong. (Yes, he actually said this).
The Buffyverse is a very black and white moral place (I agree with that). Spike didn't fit in (I agree with that--because Spike was too complex, realistic, and GRAY for the simplistic black & white moral structure of the Buffyverse). But according to James, Spike didn't fit because he was EEEEVIL, on the "black" side, yet the audience sympathized with him. Basically, we women were too blinded by James' abs and cheekbones to see the "truth" of how rotten and bad Spike was.
He wishes he'd played soulless Spike darker, instead of subverting the writing by being too sympathetic. (Which is bullshit -- David Fury just did an interview saying that Spike was always "special" and "unique" even without a soul. That's the WRITING, not the acting. And Drew Greenberg just did an interview explaining that the scene in "Smashed" when Spike tries to bite the woman is meant to be ambiguous--Spike wants to WANT to bite her, but he doesn't actually want to bite her. That's the man who WROTE the episode. So James is WRONG when he says it's entirely his fault that the audience sympathized with Spike.)
Spike was absolutely right when he said that Buffy didn't love him. Buffy loves Angel, end of story. (Oh, yeah, that's so feminist--the idea that a woman's high school crush is the only man she'll ever be able to love in her life?)
In his opinion, Spike and Buffy didn't have sex the night before the battle in "Chosen." Because "Spike wouldn't have started anything at that point." (Oh? Because it was BUFFY who came down the stairs into Spike's room, not the other way around. But of course, it's always the man who is responsible for what happens sexually; woman are too pure and perfect to be held responsible for THEIR behavior.)
Repeat after James: "If a man is bad, he'll be bad to you." "You don't want to hear it, but it's true."
Okay, you know what? I'm an adult woman. I don't need some TV actor giving me advice on my love life. I can't get over the ridiculous, stupid, condescending attitude that James Marsters has toward women. He idealizes women--this is not a good thing. This is not a feminist thing. When men idealize women, they create this fantasy picture of what a woman is that has absolutely nothing to do with WHO she is as a person, as an individual human being. This idealized portrait of a woman also takes away a woman's responsibility for her own actions, because she's just a sweet little lady--she could never do anything wrong. She has to be PROTECTED by the big strong men around her -- from the other scary BAD men that the GOOD men don't approve of. (And this also goes with ASH's comment that Giles was right to try to kill Spike because any parent would want to protect their daughter from an abusive relationship. Hello! Yeah, it was an abusive relationship--in which BUFFY was the abuser! But oh, no, she's just a poor meek little woman! Nothing's ever her fault.)
And people kept defending him, going "Oh, he just doesn't want to teach women to idealize men who treat them badly." Yeah, but that's not what happened with Spike and Buffy! I was IN a shitty relationship where I was getting used. I know exactly how they work. And who did I identify with? SPIKE. Spike is the one who was getting used and abused, both emotionally and phsycially, by Buffy. Buffy was the one with all the power in that relationship. They met when and where she wanted, NOT where he wanted. She had the control over what they did and didn't do. She was the one who refused to tell anyone, when he wanted to be open, she was the one who refused to TALK when he wanted to talk, etc etc etc. She is the one who BEAT HIM HALF TO DEATH AND LEFT HIM LYING IN AN ALLEY, and never even APOLOGIZED or told anyone who mattered what she had done! I am so fucking sick of hearing what an abuser Spike was and what a victim Buffy was, because that is absolute bullshit. People are so blinded by their conceptions of traditional gender roles, in which women are passive and victimized and men are active and aggressive, that they didn't even SEE what actually happened on TV between these two characters. They just take this situation and fit it into the pre-existing cultural structures without any real analysis of what ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
Also, again, James didn't say a single positive thing about Spike all weekend. All he did was LECTURE us on how WRONG it is that we are fans of the character! Hello!? Spike went from a villain-of-the-week to a hero who DIED TO SAVE THE WORLD. That is an absolutely amazing redemptive journey; that is more growth than *any* other character on the show has experienced. Why can't James say something about that? Why can't he say a single positive thing about the character that the audience he's surrounded by LOVES? People have traveled all this distance because we love this character. The reason James is getting paid to show up at this convention is because people love the character. The reason Spike was ever brought back as a regular was because we love the character. Where the hell does he get off INSULTING us and tell us we're WRONG for loving the character?
And aside from the gender thing (and I'm still so pissed off about James's attitude toward women that I can barely type), what is so wrong with the fact that we saw something GOOD in Spike all along? Yeah, Spike was bad early-on. Of course he was. He was a *vampire*, he killed people, blah blah blah. But starting (for me; others saw it at different times) when he put down that shotgun and tried to comfort Buffy instead of killing her, we saw something good in Spike. Not that he WAS good; of course not. But we saw a SPARK of something beautiful, something that, if allowed to grow, would have been so amazing. And actually--it did grow! From small compassionate acts to being tortured to protect Dawn, taking care of Dawn all summer, fighting for his soul, and finally saving the world. Those of us who saw the spark all along, we were RIGHT! That beauty and goodness that we saw in evil Spike grew and grew, and we were vindicated when he saved the world. (And I think the finale sucked ass, but the fact remains that Spike saved the world). We were right all along--we saw something with the potential to be amazing and we watched it grow into something truly beautiful. We saw that no matter how badly you've fucked up in your life, you have FREE WILL, and you can CHOOSE to become a better person. It was Spike's STRUGGLE to better himself that meant so much to me.
And somehow this makes me morally depraved? Because personally, I think the people with moral issues are the ones pushing this view that says "Once you screw up, that's it. You life is over, and you may as well just go kill yourself, because once you're labelled 'bad' that's ALL you can EVER be, and no matter how hard you fight and struggle and try to change for the better, you'll always be NOTHING."
James Marsters didn't say a single positive thing about Spike all weekend.
He said:
The Spike/Dawn friendship was supposed to horrify us because poor little Dawn was getting corrupted by Big Bad Spike.
It's our fault that Spike tried to rape Buffy. If we had just hated Spike in season six like we were supposed to, the writers wouldn't have had to write the bathroom scene to show us that we were wrong. (Yes, he actually said this).
The Buffyverse is a very black and white moral place (I agree with that). Spike didn't fit in (I agree with that--because Spike was too complex, realistic, and GRAY for the simplistic black & white moral structure of the Buffyverse). But according to James, Spike didn't fit because he was EEEEVIL, on the "black" side, yet the audience sympathized with him. Basically, we women were too blinded by James' abs and cheekbones to see the "truth" of how rotten and bad Spike was.
He wishes he'd played soulless Spike darker, instead of subverting the writing by being too sympathetic. (Which is bullshit -- David Fury just did an interview saying that Spike was always "special" and "unique" even without a soul. That's the WRITING, not the acting. And Drew Greenberg just did an interview explaining that the scene in "Smashed" when Spike tries to bite the woman is meant to be ambiguous--Spike wants to WANT to bite her, but he doesn't actually want to bite her. That's the man who WROTE the episode. So James is WRONG when he says it's entirely his fault that the audience sympathized with Spike.)
Spike was absolutely right when he said that Buffy didn't love him. Buffy loves Angel, end of story. (Oh, yeah, that's so feminist--the idea that a woman's high school crush is the only man she'll ever be able to love in her life?)
In his opinion, Spike and Buffy didn't have sex the night before the battle in "Chosen." Because "Spike wouldn't have started anything at that point." (Oh? Because it was BUFFY who came down the stairs into Spike's room, not the other way around. But of course, it's always the man who is responsible for what happens sexually; woman are too pure and perfect to be held responsible for THEIR behavior.)
Repeat after James: "If a man is bad, he'll be bad to you." "You don't want to hear it, but it's true."
Okay, you know what? I'm an adult woman. I don't need some TV actor giving me advice on my love life. I can't get over the ridiculous, stupid, condescending attitude that James Marsters has toward women. He idealizes women--this is not a good thing. This is not a feminist thing. When men idealize women, they create this fantasy picture of what a woman is that has absolutely nothing to do with WHO she is as a person, as an individual human being. This idealized portrait of a woman also takes away a woman's responsibility for her own actions, because she's just a sweet little lady--she could never do anything wrong. She has to be PROTECTED by the big strong men around her -- from the other scary BAD men that the GOOD men don't approve of. (And this also goes with ASH's comment that Giles was right to try to kill Spike because any parent would want to protect their daughter from an abusive relationship. Hello! Yeah, it was an abusive relationship--in which BUFFY was the abuser! But oh, no, she's just a poor meek little woman! Nothing's ever her fault.)
And people kept defending him, going "Oh, he just doesn't want to teach women to idealize men who treat them badly." Yeah, but that's not what happened with Spike and Buffy! I was IN a shitty relationship where I was getting used. I know exactly how they work. And who did I identify with? SPIKE. Spike is the one who was getting used and abused, both emotionally and phsycially, by Buffy. Buffy was the one with all the power in that relationship. They met when and where she wanted, NOT where he wanted. She had the control over what they did and didn't do. She was the one who refused to tell anyone, when he wanted to be open, she was the one who refused to TALK when he wanted to talk, etc etc etc. She is the one who BEAT HIM HALF TO DEATH AND LEFT HIM LYING IN AN ALLEY, and never even APOLOGIZED or told anyone who mattered what she had done! I am so fucking sick of hearing what an abuser Spike was and what a victim Buffy was, because that is absolute bullshit. People are so blinded by their conceptions of traditional gender roles, in which women are passive and victimized and men are active and aggressive, that they didn't even SEE what actually happened on TV between these two characters. They just take this situation and fit it into the pre-existing cultural structures without any real analysis of what ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
Also, again, James didn't say a single positive thing about Spike all weekend. All he did was LECTURE us on how WRONG it is that we are fans of the character! Hello!? Spike went from a villain-of-the-week to a hero who DIED TO SAVE THE WORLD. That is an absolutely amazing redemptive journey; that is more growth than *any* other character on the show has experienced. Why can't James say something about that? Why can't he say a single positive thing about the character that the audience he's surrounded by LOVES? People have traveled all this distance because we love this character. The reason James is getting paid to show up at this convention is because people love the character. The reason Spike was ever brought back as a regular was because we love the character. Where the hell does he get off INSULTING us and tell us we're WRONG for loving the character?
And aside from the gender thing (and I'm still so pissed off about James's attitude toward women that I can barely type), what is so wrong with the fact that we saw something GOOD in Spike all along? Yeah, Spike was bad early-on. Of course he was. He was a *vampire*, he killed people, blah blah blah. But starting (for me; others saw it at different times) when he put down that shotgun and tried to comfort Buffy instead of killing her, we saw something good in Spike. Not that he WAS good; of course not. But we saw a SPARK of something beautiful, something that, if allowed to grow, would have been so amazing. And actually--it did grow! From small compassionate acts to being tortured to protect Dawn, taking care of Dawn all summer, fighting for his soul, and finally saving the world. Those of us who saw the spark all along, we were RIGHT! That beauty and goodness that we saw in evil Spike grew and grew, and we were vindicated when he saved the world. (And I think the finale sucked ass, but the fact remains that Spike saved the world). We were right all along--we saw something with the potential to be amazing and we watched it grow into something truly beautiful. We saw that no matter how badly you've fucked up in your life, you have FREE WILL, and you can CHOOSE to become a better person. It was Spike's STRUGGLE to better himself that meant so much to me.
And somehow this makes me morally depraved? Because personally, I think the people with moral issues are the ones pushing this view that says "Once you screw up, that's it. You life is over, and you may as well just go kill yourself, because once you're labelled 'bad' that's ALL you can EVER be, and no matter how hard you fight and struggle and try to change for the better, you'll always be NOTHING."
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I have a theory
Date: 2003-06-09 03:32 pm (UTC)But... About *James* making his comments... I had this theory for awhile. Maybe I am completely off-base, but I've believed for quite some time that Joss Whedon LOVES his ass kissed and HATES being criticized by his employees, and that this attitude permeates ME's corporate culture. What James said - it seems to me EXACTLY, word for word, what ME used to say about the character and his fans. And I can't help but think that all James does is repeat the party line, that he serves as his bosses' apologyst in taking upon himself the blame for their screw-ups.
*They* screwed up. They let Buffy and Scoobs abuse Spike. What they put on screen was unconscionable. They never realized the full measure of Buffy's depravity, they severely underestimated the number of fans who identified with Spike instead of Buffy, and they didn't get, in time, how horribly cruel and sadistic the character of Buffy Summers was coming across. And guess what? It was Joss Whedon's baby. *He* was the one behind the "life as a big bad" storyline, and *he* was the one who authorized AR.
So to admit now that they screwed up, that Buffy wasn't exactly a helpless victim but a sadistic freak to Spike the whole time, and Spike actually had that seed of goodness which Buffy was too blind to see? They can't do that without admitting it was Joss Whedon's fault for coming up with this crap and SMG's fault for not playing her character more sympathetically. So they blame James. And he repeats it.
JM (and Spike) is a patsy in this situation. He is the employee that his bosses made to take the fall for their screw ups. Just like they tried to make the character he played into a fall man on the show. He can't come out and say "Spuffy sucked, Buffy was an abusive bitch and I have no clue why Spike would ever tolerate her crap, and the writers screwed up majorly when they let the heroine to turn into an abuser", even if he thinks that (maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but we don't know *what* he really thinks about all this, IMHO).
ME blames Spike and JM, and they would NOT admit they made the heroine of their show into a terrible abuser (because it's stupid, and it hurt the show, and they don't want to admit how far they erred in what they put on screen). "Spike was evil, it's all JM's fault he played him too sympathetically, Buffy was right to treat him like crap, and Fox insists on B/A4eva". This is ME's talking, James is just their faithful mouth piece. It's not like he has any choice in this either - from I've seen, you HAVE to kiss the writers (and espicially Joss's) ass in order to work at ME. JMHO.
Re: I have a theory
Date: 2003-06-09 03:59 pm (UTC)All this completely contradicts many other things that I've heard JM has said, and I'm completely shocked by it. I don't expect much better from the writers and from Joss, it's what they've been spouting all along, but James seemed to come across much more intelligently, and fairly, in other articles, interviews and transcripts. I've read articles many, many times where he's said that he played Spike with more soul than was written, but never one where he said he regretted that.
I completely resent the implication that we've been "blinded" by abs and cheekbones, and I hate it when people tell me that that's the only reason I love Spike.
I'm going to Tampa as well, and my expectations for the con have just dropped considerably. I really hope I'm not disappointed further by him, because, reading that, it almost feels like I've been betrayed. This is someone that I admired for his opinions and honesty, and the fact that he cares about his fans. So, I really, truly hope that those of us who think it's something going on behind the scenes are right, because I'm not sure how I would take the fact that he seems to have completely changed his viewpoint into something that appalling and untrue.
For the record, I fully agree with everything you said (for me, also, it was the moment when he put down the gun that
I started seeing something completely different in Spike), and so I've friended you back :)
I think I'm going to write him a letter, actually, explaining to him my views on Spike, and asking what makes him feel what he does toward him, because this is something that I would expect from some of the anti-Spikes that I've talked to, certainly not JM himself.
-Glop
Re: I have a theory
Date: 2003-06-10 03:23 pm (UTC)Seriously, though, we really ought to hang out more. Are you coming to
You know, I really think that James does believe everything that he's saying. And I think it's because of his idealization of women; in his mind, it would be impossible to even conceive the idea of a woman, especially a small, blond, pretty woman, abusing a man. The actual facts of the situation are meaningless; he's just fitting the sitatuion into his particular interpretation of social gender roles. Plus, he's so personally hurt and upset by the attempted rape scene (which he has described several times as "the worst day of [his] life") that he is incapable of seeing the situation in any kind of unbiased light.
I really wish someone would show him Kristen Smirnov's domestic abusive essay (here), which says everything I wish he would "get" about why we identify with Spike and about how Spike was the victim and Buffy was the abuser.
Re: I have a theory
Date: 2003-06-10 03:38 pm (UTC)...but we can never be, and our love has to be tragic. Angsty, teary, and tragic. Oh, joy. ;-P
Are you coming to herself_nyc's gathering on the 21st?
Yep, I'll be there. Wheeeee!
As for James - I think he believes it to the extent that *Spike* believes it. James is a Method actor, and as such he completely internalizes his character.
There's no doubt in my mind that *Spike* believed every piece of crap Buffy threw at him - "a soulless evil thing, a monster, nothing good or clean inside", blah-blah-blah. That's why he went to get a soul, because he believed every nasty thing she ever said about him. And I suspect James internalizes the character to a degree where *he* believes whatever Spike believes - Spike was evil, didn't deserve Buffy, and she never loved him. Add to that his bosses' official opinion, and it's no wonder he's supporting ME's party line so wholeheartedly.