(no subject)

[rusty_halo]

So, um, I read the sides.

Let's see ... I'm going to rate each thing that stood out to me, point by point.

This is all totally my opinion; please don't make up your mind based on this, as much of it is just my perception.

The first point, of course, is that Spike's a ghost. That's bad for about a million reasons. But at least there's some chance that he won't remain a ghost forever. (I'm not getting my hopes up, though.)

Spike's snarky. That's good.

Spike's mocking Angel with good reason. That's good.

Spike's not just a one-dimensional source of humor. That's good.

Spike brings up their rivalry over Buffy. That's bad. I would greatly prefer that she stay the hell away from both of them. I really don't want their rivalry to focus on something as trivial as a love triangle; they've got years of history to deal with, most of which happened way before she came into the picture. It's too early to tell whether this will be the focus of the Angel/Spike relationship, but it's not a good sign.

Spike's really petty and immature. I'm not sure if that's good or bad. On the one hand, after dying to save the world and all that, I have a hard time buying him acting like a three year old. On the other hand, I guess I do prefer him as immature. Saint Spike makes me ill. I don't really see his immaturity as a flaw though; he can be as petty as he wants as long as he makes the right choices in the end, which he does. And it's nice that he's annoying Angel; I just worry that the general audience is being set up to dislike him because he mocks Angel? I don't know. Ambivalent on this point.

Slashy subtext! Yay! Totally a good thing.

Spike seems very sad/upset about being dragged back into the world against his will. I guess that's kinda good, because it gives him drama and depth and issues to deal with. But man, I'm sick of seeing Spike suffer. And really, after all the struggle and suffering he's done over the past three years, why does he have to deal with even more? It's like a never-ending spiral of misery. At least most of the other characters get their moments of happiness in between the spirals of misery. When's the last time Spike was happy? (And no, his death scene doesn't count!) So I suppose I'm ambivalent on this point.

The writer spends way too much time describing how cool Angel's fight moves are. Ick.

Spike doesn't get to respond to Angel's accusation that he got off easy on the soul issue. That annoys me to no end; Spike chose his redemption, Angel got cursed with it, and we're supposed to see the one who used free will as somehow worse? That's stupid. I worry that the writers didn't give Spike an appropriate rebuttal because they couldn't think of one; do they honestly still think Angel is better? It was David Fury who recently described Angel as morally unambiguous (lawyer buffet, fucking Darla, nearly murdering a helpless Wesley, and killing his own son aside!) and Spike as morally ambiguous (despite the fact that he sought his own soul and, oh yeah, saved the world). If they're going to bring up that issue, they should at least mention both sides. Otherwise they're just giving the anti-Spike people more ammunition to use against Spike fans. So, that's bad.

Spike says he's through helping people. Is he telling the truth? Not sure. Seems like another of those red herring "look, Spike is still morally ambiguous!" things that always turn out the same way: oh, right, Spike makes the right choice after all, blah blah blah. But it'll give the anti's another reason to hate Spike. And I'd prefer real moral ambiguity, not lip service paid to it, and I don't really buy moral ambiguity from souled Spike anyway (which is part of the reason that he irritates me). So, ambivalent.

Spike's comments about Fred. Said in the interest of faking out the bad guy, but still make Spike look bad. More of the "Spike is a mysogynist!" thing that Fury's always harping on. Bad.

The whole "Is Spike evil?" fakeout. They've been doing these since Intervention; that's more than TWO YEARS of "Is Spike evil?" fakeouts, and he always makes the right choice in the end. I'm so incredibly sick of this damn storyline. I know some people are cheering that they "got it out the way" with this episode, but I wonder if they've really gotten it out of the way at all. I thought it was out of the way after "Intervention," and after "Grave," and after "Beneath You," and after "Sleeper," but it just keeps coming back, so I pretty much doubt that this is the last we'll see of it. That's annoying, so bad.

So that's 5 bads, 4 goods, and 3 ambivalents. Making my evaluation of the sides ambivalent, but leaning toward disappointed.

On the other hand, onetwomany's speculation about what the bad spoilers could be makes me feel infinitely better. This doesn't seem nearly as awful when you consider some of those possibilities.

Comments

[jslayeruk.livejournal.com]

Well, that may all be true... but surely you'd be happy about anything once we get the line "I'm [Angel's] date."?

I know that cancels all the bad for me!

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Well, it's definitely a check in the "plus" column.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Uhm...Angel gets to look cool cause the show is called Angel. Not to be snarky or anything, but really. Your boy hardly corners the market on suffering. "I can't get emotionally attatched to anyone lest I turn into a raving sociopath and eat them, I had to kill my only son so that he wouldn't end the world, in exchange for which I have to run an evil corporation while still trying to save the world in my spare time and atone for two centuries of sins" ring any bells?

Spike got kicked around a lot. It happens. Particularly in Jossverse, particularly to all the heroes therein.

I don't see why everyone has to make this a fucking war AGAIN. Believe me, us AtS fen are just as annoyed at the possibility of Spike the Freindly Ghost overtaking the show we loved already.

So, riddle me this: Why can't Spike be cool as Spike and Angel be cool as Angel? They don't have that much in common personality wise which means they play off one another fabulously and the slashy subtext kicks ass. I'm sick of seeing the Vs. argument everywhere.

And I'm sorry to rant in your LJ, it's not a personal thing against you, I know you, I respect you, I really really like you- it's just ARGH! There's gonna be snark between them, but if we're all good little boys and girls maybe then there will be kissing after! Yea. Yea.

Sigh. Fandom makes my head hurt. Apologies again if I come off sounding personally attacking. Swear it's not how I meant it.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Not trying to start a war or be rude or hurt anyone's feelings, really. I'm just being honest about my reaction as I read the thing.

The writers are constantly comparing the characters. "Spike can't be good because it would diminish Angel" blah blah blah. When people say things like that, Spike fans get defensive. "Spike can't be with Buffy because he tried to rape her, but it's okay for Angel to be with her even though he murdered her teacher, tortured her watcher, and raped a bunch of other women." And so on. I think it's a double standard, and it annoys me. I'm sure you see it from a totally different POV, and I respect that even though I disagree.

Believe me, I'd like nothing more than lots of snarkiness and then some kissing after. I'd like to see the show play with that dynamic and make it fun instead of constantly comparing the two, but that's what the writers seem to set it up for. Over and over.

I don't know. I probably wouldn't be defensive about Angel if I hadn't heard a million times that I'm a "serial killer lover" and "rape apologist" and whatever other bullshit from Angel fans. It's like a vicious circle. I hear that, I want to criticise Angel in turn. I'm sure you guys are defensive about stuff too. On his own, I could probably just enjoy watching Angel. (I'm really thinking of taking a break from fandom for a while and trying to look at this stuff more clearly, because it's true that writer interviews and fan reactions influence a lot of how I view the show.)

And as far as the characters suffering: I know they all get kicked around, but it's a lot more appealing when they get some moments of happiness, too. Willow had the lovey romantic stage with Tara before everything went to hell (then she had it again with Kennedy for no good reason). Buffy and Angel had their period of happiness before that went to hell; Angel had his happiness with baby Connor before that went to hell; Xander and Anya had the mostly-blissful engagement before that went to hell. When was the last time Spike was happy for more than one scene? Season four? I don't mind him suffering; it makes his story more interesting. (Also he's usually pretty when he suffers.) But when it's non-stop suffering all the time, it just starts to bore and irritate me. (Buffy was miserable for a reeeeally long time, and that started to bore/irritate me too.) I want to see Spike happy for a little while. Then he can suffer some more if the writers want him to.

I dunno ... you posted, I disagree, I'm certain you disagree. I know I've said stuff that must piss you off but I honestly don't mean to. I hope we can agree to disagree since I really like you too. :)

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Sigh. Ok. Let's do it.

Please bear in mind that for some reason I cannot fathom, after the slashers (who make up the vast majority of my LJ friends' list) I have more Spuffy fen on my list than straight Angel fen. I think it started when I freinded Annie SJ, cause I worship her socks, and then it all just grew. I freind back whomever freinds me, so now I have this huge honking list of people with whom I don't very often agree. *G*

Now, that's cool, we're all adults. But sometimes? I get really tired of being the only one who takes a different perspective. So allow me my perspective, and take no offense, yea?

Basically, yea. I disagree. Kinda with everything.

Spike was quite damned happy for a long, long time. When he was evil. He bagged two Slayers, got to fuck Dru and made himself quite a name and rep. When Angelus got a soul, he had 100 years of being Alpha Dog and he LOVED it. He revelled in it. Spike was so cool BECAUSE he revelled in it. He LOVED being a vampire. He was, in fact, downright giddy til he lost Dru in S2,and even after, when he betrayed Angelus to the Slayer and got Dru back. Hell, in S3, in Lover's Walk, he's the ONLY one who's happy by the ep's end. He finds his balls, and he drives off into the sunset singing Sinatra.

Then it's S4 he gets chipped. Again, I stress, Joss and Marsters both call this a hero's journey. You suffer, you get the props.

Angel wandered around in alleyways eating rats for 100 years when he got cast out of clan Aurealias, we just didn't see all of it onscreen. Spike at least got to hang out with other living creatures. And no, he didn't have it easy. He had an electronic leash instead of a metaphysical one, and it sucked to be him. But it was the beginning of his journey. Without the chip, he never woulda gotten near Buffy, let alone fucked her and wound up souled and saving the world. The chip FORCED change on him, and Spike is a social creature, much more so than Angel. He changed, he rolled with the punches. Literally sometimes.

He suffered for two seasons, but he certainly had some moments of glory; Dawn loved him, Buffy asked HIM (not Xander, not Willow, not GILES) to look after Dawn for her. Actually, the only time I can agree completely with Spike fen about his ability to be mainly benevolent without outside benefit is the summer after Buffy died. He was a better man when she was gone.

Then she came back. EVERYONE suffered that season, he surely wasn't alone. Who had a good time in S6? None of the characters, and hell, often? Not even the audience. At the end of it, he ran off to get a soul. He didn't have much time souled though, so he didn't have a lot of time to be happy or - not. I anticipate this year he'll get, er, fleshed out. At least, we'll see how he functions souled, part of a team, and without a woman to follow around. I think it'll be great character growth.

And look, as far as the whole who was worse to Buffy and the Scooby Gang, Angel or Spike, thing goes? That's why Angel LEFT. He knew he couldn't be around those people after doing what he did. IMO, Spike coming back to Sunnydale was horribly selfish. "Here I am! Deal with me! Love me!" Because that's his character flaw. He is like a child, he needs love all.the.time. Angel's weakness OTOH, is he leaves rather than deal with shit. They were both CLASSICALLY themselves when dealing with Buffy. All the time.

But. Spike tried to rape BUFFY. Not her teacher, not her Watcher, not some nameless, faceless chick we never got to see onscreen. And I wouldn't ask Giles to forgive Angel, and I sure as hell wouldn't ask Jenny Calender to date him. So. While I think that souled Spike should be forgiven on general principle, I do not think a girl should be required to date her once attacker in order to prove that forgiveness is granted. Hell. I don't even think it's required that she DOES forgive him, although I would love to see an adult understanding between them regarding the mutual harm they inflicted on one another throughout S6.

There endeth the post. If I'd have known I was gonna go on this long, I'd have brought water.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

So allow me my perspective, and take no offense, yea?

No offense taken. You're certainly allowed your perspective. I disagree with much it.

I doubt it's going to get us anywhere productive if we keep on with this topic, so I'm agreeing to disagree. Still really like you, and respect you, even though I disagree with some of your opinions.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Well hey. Adults. That worked out well. I should just put a tag to this LJ so that when other fen are being asshats, we can say Hey! We did it! Now shut the fuck up. *G*

Thanks for letting me rant in your Spikey space.

Smooch.

[elz.livejournal.com]

I just worry that the general audience is being set up to dislike him because he mocks Angel?

After some of the things that Wesley, Cordelia, Gunn and Lorne have said to Angel over the years? Nah.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but they're friends, not rivals.

[elz.livejournal.com]

True. But in general, the writers treat Angel's dignity as something that can always use a little puncturing, so I don't see them playing Spike's snark as anything significantly harsher than the usual jokes. And I've gotten the sense that Angel gives as good as he gets, too.

[buffyx.livejournal.com]

Well, Spike brings up Buffy only once from as far as I can tell. And honestly, to expect her to remain completely out of the picture is, unfortunately, wishful thinking. But they also do bicker over other subjects, so hopefully it won't be all.about.Buffy.

About Spike being dragged against his will-- maybe he's not glowing about it, but I'd much rather him be pissed and snarky than depressed and mopey. And I do want him to be happy, but if he's perfectly happy, there isn't much of a story; he does need conflict. So, I'm going to take that as a good.

As for the comments about Fred-- Well, I can see where you're coming from, but my little closet-shipping Spike/Fred heart did a little jump at that, so I can't even work up much indignant anger about it.

I'm someone who did not want Ghost!Spike at all. I still have my reservations, but so far, it's looking to be a lot better than I thought it'd be. The writing for him feels a lot better than it was the last two years on Buffy.

[drujan.livejournal.com]

Fuck me sideways with a chainsaw.

The last three years, in the finales of seasons 5, 6, and 7, Spike did something amazing:
- heroically fought against the hellgod,
- fought to get his soul,
- died to save the world.

It's nice to know Joss follows the tradition of these seasons in how the character gets treated in the aftermath of his heroic actions. Long live Kick the ("Will he go evil?") Spike.

[jaydk.livejournal.com]

I don't see the Kick the Spike complaint in this scenario. Spike made a deliberate decision to trade his unlife for the sake of the world; however he's brought back into the picture, I think there would necessarily be conflict, because he's being resurrected. It's a disruptive event for the resurrectee, I assume, any way you slice it.

And also, I think there needs to be conflict. This is a drama; conflict drives the story. Moreover, I don't know how Spike and Angel could be on the same show without conflict; they're naturally antagonistic characters with literally centuries of issues to deal with between the two of them. I'm looking forward to watching this particular conflict, actually.

Finally, our choices are this: Spike off enjoying his eternal reward in (off-screen) peace, or Spike forced to participate (on-screen) in the world, willingly or no. Of the two, I prefer to get to see Spike's story continue to be told.

[drujan.livejournal.com]

A vampire with a soul who sacrificed his life in the End of Days battle deserves shanshu or at least a trip to heaven, NOT lingering in limbo as a ghost bound to the man he can't stand. Spike fulfilled the prophecy first, but no, have to keep shanshu for Angel. I don't see how the ghost scenario is respectful of Spike's sacrifice.

Besides, if Spike got the shanshu, *that* would have been a foundation for a conflict with Angel - Angel thought the reward was supposed to be his, ooops, Spike earned it, AND Spike got a better chance at the girl. Plus it's a much greater conflict for Spike - how would he like being human? How long would he stay human? What if he were vamped again?

Making Spike a ghost is the path of least resistance. It REMOVES the threat to Angel. Spike is just a wacky neighbor ghost, and Angel is a hero who will be rewarded with shanshu and get the girl in the end. No wonder Ducks are celebrating.

Anyway, who cares? I don't think I'll be tuning in to Angel. Jake 2.0 on Wednesdays next fall looks mighty promising, and for now there are those PotC fics to read. (Oooooh, Jack.)

[jaydk.livejournal.com]

Part of the reason that the ghost scenario doesn't bother me is because I don't think it's permanent. I think comments have been made to the effect that the way Spike returns is not the way he'll remain; and also, this seems like a good way to get around JM's need to be out of the picture (literally) for a while to go film his movie. So, I'm willing to see where they go with this idea. If Spike subverts the role of ghost to the extent that he subverted the Jossverse role of the vampire, it could be pretty good.

Also, I kind of like the idea of Spike being caught between two worlds. It seems very true to the character and his journey -- he's always been stuck between the human and the demon, the natural and the supernatural. And eventually (I hope) we will see him choose which way to go next -- to go on, or to remain in this world. That neatly short-circuits the Buffy syndrome of "I'm back among the living and I don't wanna be! Wah!" of season 6.

And, to be brutally honest: Spike is no threat to Angel, no matter what his state of being. Angel is the lead of his own series; Spike is a supporting character. If SMG agrees to reprise the Buffy role, it seems contingent upon revisiting the Buffy/Angel story. SMG could not care less about Buffy/Spike, as she's made pretty darn clear; and the return of Buffy is up to her. Whether Spike is human, demon, ghost or ghoulie, he's never going to get the girl; but since I don't particularly like Buffy, I'm pretty okay with that. I just want to see what happens to Spike next.

[drujan.livejournal.com]

I kind of like the idea of Spike being caught between two worlds. It seems very true to the character and his journey -- he's always been stuck between the human and the demon, the natural and the supernatural.

This is a good point, how being a ghost is once again to be stuck between two worlds. I guess this is exactly why it completely fails to excite me - I am no longer interested in *that* Spike, the stuck-between-two-worlds Spike. I hoped for something new, some new condition for Spike that would for once stop the cycle of "not here not there, wishing for impossible, not belonging anywhere but desperately wanting to". That theme was neat, only it lasted four years, time to change the tune. Otherwise, it's treading the same water with Spike.

Spike is no threat to Angel, no matter what his state of being. Angel is the lead of his own series; Spike is a supporting character.

Exactly! So *why* aren't they willing to take risks with the character? Give Spike Angel's shanshu and make Angel sweat, that's entertainment.