It's like, I just can't stop with this topic. You'd be amazed at how quiet I am in RL.

[rusty_halo]

Seriously, how is it okay for someone to say "I don't care about Spike, and I'm upset that he's taking time away from my characters," but when a Spike fan says "I don't care about Angel, and I'm worried about Spike's characterization" that makes us RABID SPIKE FEN? The double standard right there is plain as day. It's okay for them to worry about their characters, but it's somehow wrong for us to worry that our character is getting shafted? On what planet is that fair?

You know what else? I've watched BtVS and AtS both from their very first episodes, minus some lulls where I got bored or fell asleep in the middle. It's not like I'm hopping on the bandwagon and not knowing anything about the show; I watch the show. But now that Spike's here, for the first time, I actually care about the show.

I suppose some people out there watch the show and love every character equally. But most of us identify with one or two characters in particular and care most about their stories. And again, I ask, if the character I happen to care about is Spike, why does that mean there's something wrong with me? There's nothing wrong with a Wesley fan caring most about Wesley, or an Angel fan caring most about Angel. I'm not going to hold that against them. But why, when it's Spike, is it a problem?

And, oh yes, why is there something wrong with me if I don't care about Buffy/Angel/Wes/Lorne/whoever? I see this all the time; you're a "bad fan" if you don't care about Buffy. Huh? Says who? I find her behavior horrific and her personality loathesome. Why does this make me a rotten nasty person?--I dislike her precisely because her behavior offends my morality! It's like, how dare I have an opinion that's not all sunshine and roses and praise Joss? And no one bitches about the Buffy fans who go on about how they can't stand that evil nasty Spike, but it's wrong for the Spike fans to dislike Buffy? Why? The only reason I can see is that she's prioritized by the narrative, she's in the title, etc., but that is just not relevant to me because authorial intent is not my method of interpreting a text. The writers may want me to care mostly about Buffy, but if she falls flat to me and Spike feels real and meaningful, then I'm going to care about Spike.

Y'know, part of the reason I like these shows is that they make me think. And part of thinking means being critical. It would be pretty damn lame (and dishonest with myself) if I watched every episode going "Yay! Joss is wonderful! Everything is so good!" Um, no. BtVS made me think a whole lot about morality and ethics and remorse and atonement and different varieties of feminism and the media's portrayal of "girl power!" and my idea of a strong women and what defines an equal relationship and how does power function in society and a whole lot of interesting things that I might never have considered before. And a lot of the time, the reason I considered these really interesting issues was that I found something disturbing or upsetting in the way BtVS was written and I tried to figure out why it upset me. I really disapprove of the way feminism has been portrayed on BtVS and it's made me think about what feminism means to me, and even though my opinion is negative in regards to BtVS it's been a positive and enlightening realization for me as a person.

So anyway. The whole idea that I'm not allowed to be critical and I have to approve of everything Joss does is just bull, and would significantly take away from my understanding of the show and my ways of interacting with the text. I don't hold it against anyone who does view the show this way, likes all the characters, whatever; it's their right. I respect that. But my opinion is just as valid too.

And really. How would you appreciate being called RABID ANGEL FEN? RABID WESLEY FEN? RABID BUFFY FEN? It's fucking rude. We all have our favorite characters; quit judging the ones that you personally don't like.

Comments

[hazel75.livejournal.com]

::applauds Laura::

And really. How would you appreciate being called RABID ANGEL FEN? RABID WESLEY FEN? RABID BUFFY FEN? It's fucking rude. We all have our favorite characters; quit judging the ones that you personally don't like.

The fans of all the characters have some fucked up people. I'm tired of Spike's fans being the scapegoat for the entire fandom, though (kind of like I get tired of MS being the scapegoat for the entire South).

Anyway, throwing my support in with you.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Scapegoat. That's the word. We're the bad fans who need to get lectured by the oh-so-superior Angel fans. Gah.

Anyway, thanks.

[hazel75.livejournal.com]

We're the bad fans who need to get lectured by the oh-so-superior Angel fans.

I get really pissed by this because I've watched Angel from S1. I am an AtS fan. I just like Spike, well, a helluva lot more. Sue me.

[lumenara.livejournal.com]

*pets you*

*sits in corner and quietly loves Spike*

[wisemack.livejournal.com]

Laura, darlin', I love you to little bits and pieces for saying this and saying it so damn well. ITA.

And Joss is STILL a fucktard (as I told JM in Tampa).

(((hugs)))

[chase820.livejournal.com]

You did? You really did? LOL.

How did he react? I must know.

On the main topic, I'm sorry fandom is getting you down, Laura. That's why I often avoid the general MEverse sites--people are so nasty and cruel about Spike, and that just upsets me. I don't like being upset, so I stay in the Spikey places, where it's relatively calm.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Well, now that the season has started I'm getting a feeling of who I'll have to trim from my friends' list in order to maintain my sanity. I already stay away from general boards and TWOP and the like. It's kind of depressing that Spike fandom has to be so separate, though. It's really like there are Buffy fans, Angel fans, and Spike fans. And Buffy and Angel fans get legitimized because those characters are the leads of their shows, but Spike fans are like the illegitimate step-child--they don't really have a place, they're looked down upon by everyone else, etc. It's sad to see people who I used to enjoy reading promoting these nasty stereotypes.

[ww1614.livejournal.com]

This is going to sound weird and messianistic :) but I think that a lot of my focus in this fandom has been not so much on Spike or Angel or Buffy or Knoxie or anyone but on *Spike fans*. I feel protective of Spike fans. And it's why I related to Tara fans in the beginning (until they turned on me, claws extended), too. Because fans of Tara were in the same position as fans of Spike--the inferior fans rooting for a character who was displacing a fan favorite.

Anyway, I know what you mean. I am so fucking sick of being characterized as a cheekbones-loving drolling hormone bomb. I love the character for who he is, not who plays him. As I've said before, JM may be an awesome actor who infuses his lines with every bit of soul, but it was Joss (the fucktard TM wisemack) who wrote the line "I know I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man." HTF was JM supposed to deliver that line and be evil/fucked up? With Dawn's blood dripping from his mouth? It's the writing that made Spike wonderful.

[chase820.livejournal.com]

It is a shame that fandom has become so divided. It's even more of a shame that the many of the people holding these vastly different opinions often don't make the slightest effort to be fair or civil.

If it saves your sanity, you should definitely trim your friends page. I myself consider my LJ friends list one of my only refuges from Spike haters. At least I have some control over who goes and who stays, unlike TWOP or other messageboards.

[wisemack.livejournal.com]

ROFL! Of course I did! I really did! LOL!

Actually, I'm not sure if the comment registered on JM, since I had just delivered myself of a small rant about how offensive I found "Chosen" - from a distance of about six inches from those eyes, I might add - which had effectively wiped the sexy grin right off his face. I really managed to freak him out!

(pats self on back for retaining sanity under such extreme conditions, and also feels gratitude toward whatever screwed up photographer's camera thus creating opportunity to say more than "guh")

In fact, Mr. Cheekbones was so stunned and shocked by my *death issues* and description of bad flashbacks to my daughter's death, that he promptly started blaming himself and his *bad acting for any and all defects in the finale. Well, at least until I threatened to kick his ass. *veg*

Ergo, my comment that "it's not YOUR fault that your boss is a fucktard" may have gone right over his head! Whoooosh!

[miggy.livejournal.com]

I think I love you.

[chase820.livejournal.com]

What a great story! But poor JM--he really must stop blaming himself for the many sins of Mutant Enemy, or he's going to start self-flagellating any day now.

I think that's one reason he's glad to being back to snarky sidekick mode this season--it has to be less hard on him emotionally.

[shapinglight]

It may be less hard on him, but I currently feel like it's killing my love for the character by slow inches.

[chase820.livejournal.com]

Well, it's early days yet. I'm sure they'll deepen his arc a bit as time goes on. The preview for 5.4 certainly points in this direction.

[shapinglight]

I think I love you too.

[buffyx.livejournal.com]

You already know I love you, but it always bears repeating. ;-)

[octopedingenue]

Oh dear LORD I love your icon. *jaw sags open in wonder*

[buffyx.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Spike&Fred4eVA!!111!!!!

Yours is pretty too. :-)

[irfikos.livejournal.com]

all right. who do i have to kill now?

{looks around at pile of bodies in corner & mentally moves furniture around to make more room}

And again, I ask, if the character I happen to care about is Spike, why does that mean there's something wrong with me?

obviously because he is simply a shiny blond thing, whose only purpose on the show is to suck in gullible viewers like you who only like him for his extensive nekkidness. i mean, he's so obviously just a cheap angel knock-off with no personality or storyline of his own, right?

And really. How would you appreciate being called RABID ANGEL FEN? RABID WESLEY FEN? RABID BUFFY FEN? It's fucking rude.

yeah! i mean... what the hell is wrong with having rabies? huh? just because i foam at the mouth a lot and have the urge to kill everything i see... that doesn't make me a bad person, dammit! some people with rabies go on to lead healthy, productive lives despite the foaming and the killing. grouping us with fans of a t.v. show is just plain insensitive!

:-)

[buffyx.livejournal.com]

How would you appreciate being called RABID ANGEL FEN? RABID WESLEY FEN? RABID BUFFY FEN? It's fucking rude. We all have our favorite characters; quit judging the ones that you personally don't like.

Amen on that. We're all entitled to have our own favorite characters-- and yet, I see a lot of other fans ridiculing and judging the Spike fans more than any other. We're classified as drooling rabid fangirls for defending our character, or even just enjoying seeing him with screentime.

I like almost all of the other characters on AtS, in varying degrees. But just because I'm not Angel or Wes's biggest fan, I don't get mad at people who are or label them as pathetic.

[shapinglight]

Don't know who has upset you, but I understand completely how you feel. Like most other Spike fans, I've withdrawn from all the general boards because they're full of rabid - and extremely rude - people who really need to Get A Life!

Unfortunately, at the moment, ME seem pretty determined to give them more ammuntion to hurl at us.

[needfire.livejournal.com]

I try to avoid the politicking, I find myself censoring what I write and say to avoid offense. I'm still relatively new to 'the community' I've watched every episode of both series, endured the friendly snarking from rl friends and am very confused by the boundaries and arguments that abound. I thought that the fandom being a community meant that we were all in a utopia like stand together respecting each other choices and preferences but thats not the case. I feel like I missed the memo, or was away the day that every one got taken aside and was told the rules or the code in how to behave in fan world. My first group was the update list for Laz's repossession and every one there was friendly and respectful of all ships and kinks, any trouble was soon nipped in the bud and sheepish apologies followed.
See my secret is I didn't watch Buffy for Buffy, I respect her, I sympathize with the character but I don't particularly like her. I love Spike, I would happily sit in a pub with him and get plastered, same goes for Angel. I think Angel would be a blast drunk. I was over the moon to hear that Spike was coming to live in LA. I will miss Xander, Giles and Willow but thats what the fanficton is there for..if you don't like it write your own. Chrips sorry for the rant lass...basicly I agree with you and still stand confussed at the whole ho-ha

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

If you're still confused: basically, it started with this. Then I posted basically bitching about that and the responses to it and this general anti-Spike fan attitude that we are constantly dealing with.

My opinion is that we all have the right to our preferences and it is elitist and stupid to go around classifying and judging other groups of fans because they watch the show differently than you.

[ozfan.livejournal.com]

My siblings and my mom watch both Buffy and Angel. They really like both shows. They hardly ever go on the Internet, let alone even know that there are people out there that hate Spike. So suddenly, it hit me. Don't go there anymore. It's just sad in an amusing way. So I rarely go into the TWoP Angel forums because there is really so little there to read that interests me. "Die Spike Die" gets so very boring after a while. I love my friends here at LJ because they post thoughtful, objective posts. No bashing of any characters or any fans. And if it is, it's done very silly and fun and tongue-in-cheeky. And I've been less stressed ever since.

So hugs to you, Laura, and I'm sorry someone has pissed you off. But at the same time, I love reading your rants, so I'm secretly thrilled.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I'd never go into TWOP - ick! I'm not sure how any Spike fan can stand it. It is important to maintain your sanity and not surround yourself with people who are judgemental and elitist and rude; that's why I like LJ or lists targeted specifically to Spike fans.

I've done a good job of avoiding the nasty people so it was just a shock to see it on my friends list. (Someone not on my friends list anymore, of course. I don't mind people who disagree, but there's no need for that kind of rude, judgemental elitism.)

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

But see I *am* a Rabid Angel Fan. I fangirl him beyond all reason. The thought of him makes me happy.

I felt that way about Spike to an extent as well. Hell - I helped count and analyze his frickin' headtilts for a year. There was feeling there, but just not the same intense *guh* I have for Angel. And part of this is my fault - I hung out on Spike-centric boards, because my friends are all Spike-centric and that was fine for a while as well, because I *like* Spike. I swooned over "Beneath You" and I accepted "Seeing Red" when I read elynross's brilliant essay on Spike's development as a character. All was good - except it wasn't. I felt like everytime I turned around I was defending Buffy as well and then Xander and then god-forbid Dawn snub Spike - it was a hitlist central of every character that ever committed any infraction on Spike and how dare they even exist. And that got weird. But I still liked Spike - just apparently not enough. And I also had the audacity to really, really like Angel. Apparently you can't have both. So, I'm feeling alienated (back in season 7) everywhere I turn, because, I like Spike - but I don't think he is a helpless innocent - but that is one of the things that I *like* about him. Like I said, I am a Rabid Angel fan - beyond all reason - but I know when he is being a jerk and hell, that's part of the appeal for me. Same with Spike. Same with Buffy and the same with Xander. And it was my fault for just not leaving lists where characters that I liked were being trashed, but it did create this negative-Spike feeling in me - this, "Oh, so I have to choose now? Well then I choose Buffy, Xander, Giles, Willow and Angel." And that was my fault as well. I still like Spike a lot. He makes me smile and giggle and he has this wonderful ability to not keep his mouth shut that is just so very endearing. But some of the shiny of that like got worn off last year and it was not by Spike himself - it was due to me feeling constantly on the defensive about every other single character I cared about.

So I get where you are coming from. I'm the same way about Angel. Call him ugly. Call him stupid. Call his character wooden and I chafe. But I don't see where being an Angel fan means I am anti-Spike. And I don't see why in order to be a Spike fan, you have to despise Angel. And finally, thru LJ, I've found some people that feel the same way and sanity is restored to my viewing habits.

[netweight]

I am friending you. Because this post tells me all I need to know about you.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Oh thank you. I also have a thing for Brian Kinney on QaFUS, but that is really just an extention of the Angel thing because in my mind they are as one.

[shapinglight]

There are plenty of us around who like both Angel and Spike. As a Spike/Angel slash fan, I'm one of them. I just feel that Spike needs more defending, simply because he's not the title character and thus is far more likely to get shit thrown at him (not denying Angel's suffering etc, but they're a lot more discreet about what shit they throw in case it sticks, just because he's the title character). Hope that makes sense.

And, sigh! I hoped they'd do more with Angel and Spike this season than have them hating each other.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

but they're a lot more discreet about what shit they throw in case it sticks, just because he's the title character

See, I disagree with this - Angel is dark and has done things in the past on the show (locking the lawyers in with Darla and Dru, kidnapping the head of W&H and getting his torture implements ready, opening the portal to Hortagh (or however it is spelled), and hell, the mindwipe, to name a few) that let you know that he is never all that removed from his demon. I absolutely believe that is the direction the show is going in once again - into the evil of Angel (and not in the sanitized "this is Angel and this is Angelus" way that his friends seem to want to categorize him). I couldn't be more thrilled, but at the same time I want the exploration of Spike's darkness to be an issue as well - but I'm big on the duality. Of all the main characters - Angel has done the most evil in the course of the series. It has nothing to do with his suffering - it just is what he is. Now that we have Spike - who also in effect - is what Angel is - I am so freakin stoked about what they can do with that. I want them both to reach down into their hearts and feel the darkness and then preferably tear into each other. It's not hate and it's not love. It's that they are the same. Different paths and different personalities to be sure, but the instincts and the pain and the, the - well - that thing - the knowledge of their damnation (which is a very big thing for me, and probably isn't for a lot of other people) - that there is no redemption and where do you go from there? - that is shared.

[wickedprincess3.livejournal.com]

that there is no redemption and where do you go from there? - that is shared.
Exactly. That was kinda what I thought this season was about (well other than TEH GAY ;D) but yeah. I was surprised when people freaked about the title "Just Rewards" thinking it was all "Angel deserves stuff and bwhahaha Spike goes to hell." When I was thinking "See they'd both go to hell, neither of them deserve stuf! No matter what they do it's gonna bite them on thier pretty asses! The title is meant to be ironic or something!" *loves sisabet*

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Dude - they are both damned. If it wasn't so hopeless, it would be sweet. At least they aren't alone anymore.

[netweight]

Okay, can't help quoting.

"No matter how good a boy you are - God doesn't want you! But I still do."

Season 2, man. It's all there.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Except Darla gets redemption. I think it comes with the Uterus.

[netweight]

Okay, I've tried to come up with a post that makes sense to explain where I stand. And I've realized I won't be able to.

I'm a Spike fan.
I'm also an Angel fan. In fact, I'm an A/S slasher. I love then both. I'm so into the stratosphere with the Ho!Yay that I'm having problems coming down to earth.

I'm also an AtS fan. I love the show. I love the characters. I love the stories, I love the arcs, heck, I pretty much love everything about it.

Does the fact that I'm a Spike fan makes me any less a fan of AtS? No, it doesn't. As far as I'm concerned, it's a far better show than BtVS.

However, the feeling I keep getting is that the fact that I'm a Spike fan somehow taints me in the eyes of AtS viewers. Like my opinions are of lesser value because I happen to like Spike. "Oh she's just a Spike fan."

Are there a lot of insane Spike fans out there? Yes, there are. However we're not all like this. And see, there you go right there. I automatically feel the need to point this out - like it shouldn't be obvious from the start.

There are plenty of us who are both intelligent and capable of being objective about this character. I have no illusions that he is a flawed one. Man! He's a total jerk sometimes. He is also an amazingly complex character who totally fascinates me. And I really can't understand how anyone fails to see this.

So I get defensive. Specially, because many of the analysis going around lately seem to be really prejudiced ones.
It's like AtS fans don't even want to give the character a break. See how it turns out. It's all "he's going to ruin the show" blah, blah, blah.
And I? I see nothing of the kind. So, fair enough, I haven't seen 5x03 yet (some of us have to download the thing because we live on the other side of Atlantic). But 5x02? Rocked the fucking house!
But then I went to read the reviews and hu? Seems like I'm the only one who liked it.
Because apparently no one got that "I want it to end" meant "Lets stop fighting because I'm on your side now. So I have this plan for us to get that necromancer." And that that meant Spike was risking going to Hell because he wanted to do the right thing.
But the reviews were all " 'I want it to end?' It doesn't make sense!!! Seeee! He's ruining the show already!"
Well, color me stunned. Where was the objective analysis?

So my reaction there was "Please get off of your high horse and try to be objective, okay?"
And yes, this is a very rude thing to say. But the reviews came off as pretty rude too. And the whole attitude toward us, Spike fans, and our opinions was that they didn't count because well "you're just a rabid Spike fan". And really. That's bound to piss us off.

I'm not denying that I am a fan. Because I am. I just get upset with the assumption that my opinions don't count/are not as relevant/are not intelligent because I am a Spike fan. I resent that.

I'm not trying to offend you or anything. And if I did I apologize. Because that was not my intention.

And besides I agree with you. I want the darkness. Anyone under the impression that this is going to "lead to hugs and puppies", well, wake up and smell the coffee.

I like my Spike dark. And I like my Angel dark. AtS season 2 is still the best one, IMO.

Also, kinda OT but actually not: "Closer" is so brilliant that it makes me want to built you a shrine. And if what you wanted to do was show how very alike their paths are, congratulations, you totally succeeded. And why, why are you not directing that show??

(Everyone please bear in mind that it's 2 A.M. in my part of the world. And therefore indulgence time. So if this post doesn't make sense, that is why.)

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

It's like AtS fans don't even want to give the character a break

But I'm an AtS fan and I like Spike - yes some fans don't - but by far they are not the majority - just perhaps the most vocal where you are. I know that was the case for me, an Angel fan, last year. It got fairly bashy and sucky and eventually I gave up. Which was probably the correct reaction.

Thank you so much about "Closer"

[netweight]

Didn't mean it as an accusation. I got where you where coming from. Just wanted to make sure you'd knew where I was coming from too so that we'd both know where we stand and avoid future misunderstandings. I like everything out in the open from the start. Dunno, maybe I'm just strange, I tend to get really close and personal with the people I friend. And your post told me what I needed to know about you. But you probably don't know the first thing about me and my latest posts? Me on bitch mode - probably not the best stuff to base an opinion on.

Anyway. Only thing wrong with this season, as far as I'm concerned?
No Lindsey. Now that's just tragic. *sigh*

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I miss Lindsey so much. I could cry. If I think about Lilah, I will.