(no subject)

[rusty_halo]

Here's the thing. Spike fans are defending themselves with "I love AtS too!" And AtS fans are qualifying, "Well, the Spike fans who like AtS too are okay." The issue seems to be with those Spike fans who have the audacity to care only about Spike, not the rest of the show. Those are the people we all have to quality that we are not, so that everyone knows we care about the other characters too, and we watched the show before Spike showed up, and we think Wesley/Angel/Lorne/whoever is cool, etc.

But my question is: what's so wrong with just liking Spike? I addressed this indirectly in my earlier posts, but I still found myself qualifying that I've watched AtS since the beginning. Why do I have to qualify? Why can't it just be "I watch for Spike, the rest is irrelevant, and I'm not going to apologize for it"?

I posted this somewhere private, but I'm reposting it here because it clarifies what I mean:

It's like the Angel fans are deigning to lecture the Spike fans on how to behave, and letting the "good" ones in, the ones who pass "not rabid Spike fen" muster. The ones who don't claim their Spike fandom too intensely, and are sure to make all the proper bows to the authority of the AtS fans. It's incredibly condescending, and it's based on this assumption that Angel fans are somehow superior to Spike fans and have the right to dictate who is acceptable and who is too "rabid."

The thing is, Spike fans have been around a long time, too. And while every character has their own particular fan following, many Spike fans have always felt separate. One reason is that Spike never really fit into the narrative, so aside from Spike/Buffy fans, Spike fans didn't really have that many connections to the rest of the show and characters. You could be a Spike fan and skip everything in season six after "Seeing Red," minus 3 minutes in each following episode, and have that be it. Spike's story was rarely tied very closely into the story that incorporated all the other characters (which I think is very unfortunate, but that's another issue). Another thing is that Spike fans got to be such a *huge* group--ad campaigns and mobbing at conventions and letter writing and their own separate, distinct places in fandom almost completely apart from the rest of BtVS and AtS fandom. Plus, many Spike fans abandoned general boards, like TWOP or the newsgroup, because they got sick of the rampant Spike-bashing. So they retreated to private Spike-centric communities where discussion of other characters and events tended to occur only in relation to Spike.

So now Spike fans are interacting with AtS fans, and the AtS fans think that they get to tell the Spike fans what to do because the Spike fans are joining "their" show. They see the Spike fans as less, underlings that they can lecture and decide which "count" as the acceptable ones. But it doesn't work that way--Spike fans have been around as a group longer than AtS has existed, we have our own deeply rooted ways of behaving and watching and thinking about the character.

I don't mean that Spike fans are better--my point is that neither group is "better." I seriously don't think the AtS fans would appreciate the more prominent members of Spike fandom coming over and lecturing them on how to watch the show, and the same holds true with Spike fans; we don't need prominent members of AtS fandom telling us what to do. If we want to watch the Spike scenes and skip the rest because it bores us, that's our right--just like the AtS fans can (and many prominently are) dismissing the Spike parts, forming groups were no one can talk about Spike, etc.

I'm not saying that's ideal--it would be nice if we could all appreciate everything, Spike fans loving AtS and AtS fans loving Spike. But realistically, that's not going to happen. It's a matter of taste; some Spike fans aren't going to be interested in AtS, and vice versa. That doesn't make either group "better fans," and it certainly doesn't give one group the right to lecture and order around the other.

So if you're a Spike fan and you agree with this, I suggest that we all make sure not to apologize, not to feel the need to qualify and explain and justify our existence. Even if you have been watching from the beginning and you love Angel to pieces--it would be okay if you didn't. The fact that you love Spike is enough, it has value and meaning on its own. And if the AtS fans don't want to accept that, well, too bad. They don't get to define us. They can call us rabid all they want, but we don't have to listen and we don't have to let it define who we are.

Comments

[paratti.livejournal.com]

::aplaudes::
Not apologising at all. No reason to. Nuff said.

[zyre.livejournal.com]

Ya know, I'm not a Spike fan, but I agree with you. Completely. Angel is, and probably always will be, my favorite of the two shows. There's a lot of complexity to it, paradigm shifting and all that fun juicy stuff, and yo, I think it's awesome that they've brought Spike into it. Mix things up a little. Add some snark.

Thing that gets me, is that so, so many "old school" AtS fans are going over to the Spike side or whatever, that it seems kind of contrary to say "You! Shush!" because they're writing fanfic and saying "Wow, Spike was really good in that ep!" and stuff. And while I realize that they aren't being what they qualify as "rabid fen" or whatever, they're still fanning a Spike flame that they could probably just as easily ignore if it really bothered them that much.

*shrugs* My two cents.

Of course, in my ideal fandom, everyone would be in love with Jonathan and that would be that. ;)

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

Heh! You inspired me to rant about this very thing - it's the one thing about fandom that drives me bonkers, the idea that anyone has to show credentials. I want my doctor to have credentials and I check them - I don't care if someone has "fandom" credentials. Arrrgh! Gah! And all the other appropriate spitting noises.

Hey, I like Harmony too. No apologies from me for that!

[miggy.livejournal.com]

I always wonder what sort of cred points I'D earn.

"I've watched since the first season! NYAH!"

"I watched episodes in the first season. I found the focus on a disturbingly romanticized statutory rape situation -- which was poorly acted to boot -- to be beneath my notice and declined to watch a storyline that insulted my intelligence.

MY SNOBBY BRAIN 0WNZ J00."

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

Yeah? Well, I actually liked "She" ... errr ::hides head in paper bag for the shame, the SHAME::

[miggy.livejournal.com]

My giant squishy frontal lobe did NOT like "Bad Eggs" and "Ted." Not at all. Nope! NOT. AT. ALL.

[buffyx.livejournal.com]

Am I the only one who ever liked "Ted?" Of course, I always did like Jon Ritter. *sniff*

Though yeah, Bad Eggs can die now. Along with DMP (both Doublemeat Palace AND Dead Man's Party) and IRYJ. Still, we all know AYW is the absolute worst.

[miggy.livejournal.com]

Exactly! Scream it to the rooftops! I don't like "Ted" or "Bad Eggs!" Just like I definitely don't like any of that non-canon slash!

My love of the show trumps EVERYONE'S. I have figured out how to achieve it.

[buffyx.livejournal.com]

DIE EVIL PLOT DEVICE DEMON EGGS!! DIE EVIL RILEY POD-WIFE PERSON!! DIEEEEE!!

Sorry. Venting some residual bitterness here.

[eliade.livejournal.com]

I like "Ted" and "Bad Eggs" (*love* "Bad Eggs" *g*) and "Doublemeat Palace" didn't entirely suck though I don't think I've ever watched it a second time; had no problem at all with "Dead Man's Party" (or, lord, with *any* episode, realy, in S1-3). I recently rewatched IRYJ and you know...I couldn't really muster up a hate-on for it. Seasons 1-3, man. They were creme de la creme. On the other hand, "As You Were" is perhaps my least favorite episode out of the however many hundred odd eps they did. Grrrr arrrrgh. What a wasted opportunity.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

Yeah, AYW was absolutely the WORST episode EVER on the series, I think - at least things like "Bad Eggs" had the redeeming quality of humor, but the fact that we were meant to take all that BS about Riley *seriously* just ... gah! and another GAH!

But I too like "Beer Bad" and "DMP" (it's got Giles being snarky, what's not to like?) - uh, that'd be "Dead Man's Party" not "Doublemeat Palace" (which is OK except that Spike's sweater makes my head hurt) - and "Bad Eggs" and "I Robot, You Jane" was the very first episode of BTVS I ever saw and that's when I developed my abiding love for Willow so I could never hate *that* episode!

[buffyx.livejournal.com]

I think my problem is that my blinding, admittedly irrational hatred for B/A has made it hard to watch a lot of seasons one through three. Season two is still my second favorite season, I adore but I prefer seasons four and five to one and three. Season one was a little too juvenile, Prophecy Girl aside, and though I loved Faith, season three became so melodramatic and cheesy with the B/A that I think I was going to become diabetic. Lover's Walk is one of the only episodes of that season I'll enthusiastically watch.

I think DMP's one redeeming factor was Spike's "service me" line. Granted, I haven't exactly watched Bad Eggs and IRYJ over and over, they were just too.. I don't know-- cheesy?

But yeah. I agree, AYW is definitely the worst. Can't get worse than that.

[miggy.livejournal.com]

But yeah. I agree, AYW is definitely the worst. Can't get worse than that.

Magic. Christmas. Snow.

[buffyx.livejournal.com]

Sorry, demon eggs still win out for me. Ugh. *vomits*

Of course, I'm a freak of nature who liked Amends the first time I saw it. But then I watched it again after season seven, and somehow Buffy going to Giles sobbing, "Oh my god!! Angel, like, didn't have his hair all gelled and was staring at my boobs!! Something is totally wrong, we have to help him NOW!!!" pissed me off. Yes, Angel acts freaky and you rush to his aid. Spike is fucking insane and you leave him in the basement for five episodes to rot.

Me? Season seven residual issues? *cough* Nope. Not at alllllll.

[eliade.livejournal.com]

I like "Amends." Man, I'm so easy sometimes it's just scary. *g* It is weirdly paced and lags dramatically in places--I'm not sure how well the flashbacks work--and yet I am a sucker for character-centric eps where someone's backstory gets fleshed out and we're given continuity and context for a person's issues. And the snow at the end remains one of the coolest occurances on the show for me.

"Bad Eggs" is a blatant homage to "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" (the 70s remake) with the pod people & the way they carry the eggs & such around, and that's such a great movie that it resonates well in the ep for me. (Of course, the hatchling is from "Aliens.") Also Pod!Giles and Willow are awesomely fucking scary and the Gorch brothers are a hoot, and really...well, I'm easy.

Oh I hear ya

[mimsilla.livejournal.com]

My god that pisses me off!

Yes, Angel acts freaky and you rush to his aid. Spike is fucking insane and you leave him in the basement for five episodes to rot.


Ugh, you know how some say that Buffy's feelings for Spike clouded her judgment and how she always in s7 put him above everything else? Yeah, right, compare how she treated Spike in s7 to how she always treated Angel. Ugh again!

For example: her attitude in WML. Her priority wasn't to stop mad evil vampiress from becoming strong but to save her boyfriend. (ok, nothing wrong with saving a loved one but I don't see any fans bitch about her "judgment being clouded by her emotions" there.)

And yeah, I so hate b/a. Melodramatic, over the top, juvenile, bubble gum crap.

Uh...what were e talking about?

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

Heh! "Amends" is a weird episode for me because I love the Xander bits (poor Xander sleeping out in the snow) and I love laughing at Angel's ridiculous sideburns and his accent and the FE was actually sort of scary back in Season 3 ...

So, yeah, it's STILL better than AYW. Which had no redeeming features at all, even though I always imagined that Riley's helicopter crashed in a fiery ball right after the episode ended.

[miggy.livejournal.com]

"Amends" solidified my then-shaky Buffy and Willow dislike. (Although I didn't loathe either til S5.) A friend tells you his family situation is so awful that he has to sleep outside, and you laugh at him? Baby-talking bitches.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

Heh! I didn't loathe Buffy until about mid-Season 6. And I never loathed Willow - I dunno why, but even when I wanted to slap her silly, I still always forgave her...

[miggy.livejournal.com]

It's the baby talk for me. Even if they gave stellar performances (which I don't think they did, I thought they tended to use tics and well-worn crutches far too often to convince me they were fine actors), I would have disliked both the performances and the characters because of that baby talk. It's like nails on a chalkboard to me. I cannot STAND to see grown women purposefully presenting themselves as children. It's repellant.

Plus, the horrible behavior and ducking of responsibility. But! Baby! Talking!

[liliaeth]

Oh I hated Willow since season two, she's just to whiny for my taste. Buffy, even though she was a bitch in s6, has otherwise been my fave char since season one.

[liliaeth]

Ted was great, up till the moment that they revealed he was a robot.
AYW and DMP suck, no redeemable values
But I did like Dead Man's Party.

[liliaeth]

Harmony rules
(Angel/Harmony 4ever)

[chase820.livejournal.com]

Totally agree with you here. Nobody has the right to tell anybody how or why to watch a particular show. All we should encourage each other to do is to watch it, period, so AtS stays on the air a lot longer.

If you ask me, much of this anti-rabid Spike fen rhetoric seems to come from fear and jealousy. In the past two years, Spike fans demonstrated considerable power and influence over the Jossverse--after all, he was the only regular from BtVS Season Seven to be offered a big contract on AtS. And James himself stated at many conventions that fan support is what clinched the deal for him.

People seem to be genuinely afraid that if we band together about Spike on AtS, the way we did about Spike on BtVS, we'll take over the fandom, just like they perceive our character as taking over the show itself. Which is silly--Spike never took over BtVS. It's hardly James's fault that his performance stood out because he was the only one still giving it his all during Season Seven. That he kept Spike compelling when the rest of them were devolving into pod people.

If other fans want to ensure their favorites are kept front and center, they have the right to send postcards and buy merchandise and attend conventions and take out ads just as we did. If they aren't that dedicated, they shouldn't be upset because we are.

[shapinglight]

I love this post. Can I marry it?

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Hee. I love you.

[onetwomany.livejournal.com]

I don't mean that Spike fans are better--my point is that neither group is "better."

Exactly. No one is better, no one is right, no one is wrong, it all comes down to personal taste. And who cares why someone watches anyway - it's just a television show and viewers of any description are a good thing when they lead to ratings and put a halt to those nasty cancellation threats, right?

Anyway, no apologies for loving Spike. Or Wes or Buffy or Willow or anyone else. And, um, nice rant :)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks. :)

[ladyanne04.livejournal.com]

I love a well-reasoned, rational rant. You're quite good at them.

It's a matter of taste . . . That doesn't make either group "better fans," and it certainly doesn't give one group the right to lecture and order around the other.

That just sums it up nicely. While I wish folks in fandom could all just get along, that's never going to happen. But at minimum each group should respect boundaries and not attack preferences that are entirely subjective and don't make any group superior.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

each group should respect boundaries and not attack preferences that are entirely subjective and don't make any group superior

Exactly. People really ought to chill with the condescending lectures based on totally subjective fictional preferences.

Thanks.

[gorthead.livejournal.com]

I'm not a fan of AtS. I've only seen the first two seasons because my sister bought them on DVD, haven't seen the third, and only started watching the fourth when I found out Spike would be on it the following season and figured I should find out what was going on. I don't know the names of most of the episodes, and couldn't tell you what happened in any given one. I'm only watching because Spike is on it. I don't really care about how well they do running the law firm, or Wesley's issues, or Angel's "redemption". I care about Spike's story.

So, fine, I'm a "bad fan" or whatever for watching the show for the "wrong reasons". So? I'm still a viewer, I'm still affecting the ratings, the network people don't go "Oh, this person is only watching cause of Spike, they don't count." So what is the problem? Ok, I'm done. :)

-Glop

[ozfan.livejournal.com]

ITA. Last night I was talking with a group of acquaintances who watch AtS and used to watch Buffy. They don't know how into it I really am. And one guy said, "I just read that viewship of Angel is up like millions of viewers over last year. Do you think it's cause of Spike?" and this one girl says, "If so, that just sucks."

And I asked her, calmly, truly curious, "Why does that suck? If more people are watching Angel, isn't that a good thing?"

She really didn't have an answer for me. In fact, she said, "You're right, I guess. I just feel bad for the original actors on the show." And I said, "They are getting PAID to act on a cool show. Please don't feel bad for them."

And that was it.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. You have the right to care about Spike's story, as you've been doing for years. You're not obligated to start caring about these other characters and situations; you're in it for Spike, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It might be nice if you started to care about other aspects of the show, too, but that's purely a matter of taste and doesn't make you "less" of a fan.

Those who watch only for Spike are just as legitimate as any other type of fan and we don't have to take this "second class citizen" bullshit lying down.

[teep-p12.livejournal.com]

Amen sister....