(no subject)
Oct. 25th, 2003 05:38 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rusty_haloI'm a Spike fan and a redemptionist. I sure as hell am not going to apologize for that. So if it bothers you to read thoughts from that perspective, there's a very simple solution: stop reading.
So. I've been thinking about Spike's role on AtS. Everyone seems to have a different opinion, from "He's taking over the show!" to "His journey has been completely dismissed and now he only exists to serve Angel's story." I think my opinion falls somewhere in between: like the well-known promotional poster suggests, the show has basically become the Angel and Spike show. I don't think Spike has taken over, because Angel is just as significant plot- and story- wise as he ever was. But now Spike is equally important, in a way that both illuminates Angel's story and continues Spike's own journey. (The other characters still matter, of course, but they are all firmly in secondary/supporting character positions. Meanwhile Spike, because his story is so significantly intwined with Angel's, is more than just another supporing character).
Spike went through a redemptive journey that culminated in him dying to save the world. I really don't get it when I see people complaining that his "redemption" story isn't continuing. That's because Spike's redemption story already happened. You really can't get much more redemptive than dying to save the world.
I kind of get the impression that some people really expect Spike to be "perfect" now. I mean, really, it seems that people want him to put on a monk's robe, swear off all earthly pleasures, and travel the world performing selfless acts of goodness and imparting wisdom to those less enlightened than he.
But, um, guys? That would be boring. And maybe the path to enlightenment does mean that you shed your earthly personality and become one with the divine or something like that, but I'd rather that Spike still be Spike. And Spike has always been one to revel in earthly pleasures and to do what he wants regardless of what anyone else thinks. That's not character regression; that's just consistent characterization.
In early season seven, Spike had been driven insane by Buffy-abuse, soul-remorse, and First Evil manipulation. When he started to come out of that, he got hit by mind-control, more guilt, and a few weeks of torture. So yeah, his personality was pretty subdued. He was weak and broken, and just barely starting to put himself back together. It wasn't until Get it Done, when he reclaimed the duster and kicked some demon ass, that he really started to get himself together. He became empowered again because he realized that he could be effective and do good--the duster wasn't a symbol of Spike's murderous past, but of his strength. Another important step in Spike's growth was when he realized, in Lies My Parents Told Me, that his mother really had loved him--an important step for him to regain his self-esteem and start to get over his dependence on Buffy's approval. (It came with some really cheesy pop-psychology speechifying thanks to Fury's unsubtle writing, and along with some really muddled message about the demon not being the person, except for Spike who still loved his mother as a demon, but whatever. Let's focus on the positive for now.) Spike made the decision, of his own free will, not to kill the man who'd just tortured him and who had lied to and manipulated Buffy. He kept his bad-ass attitude intact, and didn't succumb to moaning and weeping and remorse which would have gotten him killed. And this story concluded in Chosen, with Spike again choosing of his own free will to do the right thing--and he dies with attitude fully intact, laughing in the face of death.
The duster and the bad-ass attitude were a significant part of Spike's reclamation of his self-esteem and his confidence and his rebuilding of his identity. He took these symbols of his evil past and re-wrote their significance, reclaimed them as part of his new identity as a man who does what's right. He embraced what was good about his past--his confidence, strength, independence, represented by the duster and the bleached hair and the cigarettes and the attitude--and used it to further his growth into a good man. He's a good man who isn't weak and passive and conformist, but rather, a good man who embodies everything we always loved about Spike--he's passionate and powerful and does what he wants regardless of what anyone says.
So when someone says "Spike should get rid of the bleached hair and the duster, he's outgrown those symbols," I have to disagree. Spike has reclaimed those symobls and made them part of his identity as a good man. I never liked wussy, pathetic, ineffective William, and I hated the wussy, pathetic, ineffective Spilliam we got in early S7. I am a redemptionist, but redemption to me never meant that Spike has to give up everything that makes him Spike. He could change his moral orientation without losing that strength and independence and power that made him who he was. Yes, he had to be torn down and had to rebuild himself in order to do it. But the passive Spike of S7 wasn't the goal; it was just part of the process of rebuilding.
So, this takes us to AtS season five. The way I see it, the first few episodes are about playing catch-up, getting the AtS audience comfortable with who Spike is now, and setting up how Spike behaves in this new situation. I think the one valid criticism of Spike's journey on BtVS is that he never really got out from under Buffy's influence--one could argue that even his final act was done to make her life easier, not for humanity in general. So the show has to clarify that yes, Spike really truly is good now. We see him choosing to help Angel (who he hates) rather than become corporeal (what he wants most) in Just Rewards, and we see him choose to save Fred rather than become corporeal in Hellbound. Then, he decides that he doesn't want to risk the danger of hurting others that becoming corporeal might cause, so he decides it's not so bad being a ghost. It's very, very clear here that he's making the choice to give up his own desires not just to help Buffy (who's nowhere in the picture here) but to help strangers, people he barely knows, and people he dislikes. Redemption pretty well established.
These episodes have functioned basically as an epilogue to the story of Spike becoming an established good guy, and a set-up to the story of Spike as a good guy. Now what we're going to get is the story of Angel and Spike, two vampires with souls who fight for good and struggle over what that means and whether it's worth it and all that stuff. But I don't think that the old "Is Spike really good, or is he eeeeeevil?" plot is going to work anymore, because Spike as good guy has been established. He might go "beige," like Angel does, but it's not going to be something permanent.
Now I'm going to mention episode 8, so if you're spoiler-phobic, stop reading!
I'm mostly unspoiled for episodes 5, 6, and 7, so I don't know exactly how Spike's story is going to go from now on. But I did read![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
bubonicplague's summary for episode 8, so I'll comment on how that relates to my current feelings. I had a very negative reaction to episode 8, which I read right after I saw the very disappointing episode 3 (in which Spike was mostly an irritating, unsympathetic nuisance--though I'm now thinking that was mostly due to the crappiness of the writing and wasn't intentional). But when I think about episode 8 in the context of episode 4, it makes a lot more sense.
Episode 4 sets up this idea of "desire bends reality," and as we've always known about Spike, when he wants something, he's not going to give up. Angel, OTOH, is the master of giving up--whether it comes to his relationship with Buffy, the ring of Amara, his day as a human, his relationship with his son. His struggle has always been about making himself care, and as season five is showing us, Angel is once again starting to give up. He lost Cordy and Connor, he sold out to W&H, nothing matters, blah blah existential crisis, etc. He likes being a vampire (as established in ep 3) and doesn't believe in the shanshu prophecy (as established in ep 4). Meanwhile, Spike wants to do good, and wants to show up Angel--what better method than getting that shanshu. He's not stealing the shanshu; it wasn't Angel's to begin with. Desire bends reality, remember? Spike wants it more than Angel. Angel might not get it. Angel's not so special anymore. Bet that throws Angel's whole universe into disarray--he's always loved his role as the special one, the boss that everything revolves around.
I think my fear of episode 8 was that Spike would be portrayed as a bad guy. But really, it seems like Spike's the one with more passion to be a good guy (and to show up Angel, heee). Angel, who is once again close to giving up, is less of a good guy than Spike here. Why does Spike defeat Pavayne? Because "all he had to do was want it bad enough." Seems like he learned an important lesson that's definitely coming into play in this whole shanshu competition.
I'd be a lot more worried about episode 8 if episode 4 hadn't pretty firmly established that Spike is a good guy. This isn't a competition between bad souled vampire Spike and good souled vampire Angel. It's a competition between Spike, the souled vampire who still cares, and Angel, the souled vampire who is close to giving up.
Seriously, the more I think about it, episode 8 is like a gift to Spike fans. Spike comes in and fucks up Angel's whole universe--shows Angel that he's not so special anymore, that Spike is serious competition; he's just as good as Angel. Spike threatens to win what Angel always assumed was his own reward, and he kicks Angel's ass. Why are Spike fans upset again?
And of course, there's the whole Harmony thing, which seems to be what Spike fans are most upset about. I agree that we have reason to worry that Fury will use it against us--"Look, Spike's not good! Look how he uses women!" (Completely ignoring that Buffy did the exact same thing to Spike and we were still expected to consider her a hero).
But as an act on its own, ignoring how the writers might try to spin it, it doesn't seem like such a big deal. It's showing us the Spike that's passionate and the Spike who revels in earthly pleasures--the Spike who helped save the world in S2 so that he wouldn't lose dog racing and soccer. The Spike who ordered spicy buffalo wings and raved about blooming onions. That's part of Spike's personality; it's not regression. There's nothing wrong with having sex--he is not, in any way, tied to Buffy. She left him to die, remember? She said that their relationship didn't have to mean anything, she kissed Angel and dated Wood, and Spike didn't believe her when she said she loved him. Spike doesn't owe her anything. If he wants to get with Harmony, good for him.
I was always frustrated that we were supposed to think his rejection of Anya in S7 was a good thing. Why shouldn't he get a little enjoyment out of his unlife? He and Anya didn't owe Buffy and Xander anything--those people used, abused, and threw them away, in the process giving up any say they had over Spike and Anya's sex lives. I'm going to blame his rejection of Anya on his general weak and Buffy-whipped state, and be glad that he's getting over it with Harmony.
That leaves the one objection that it's wrong for Spike to use Harmony when she cares about him. (Does Spike actually know Harmony cares about him? I'm not sure; he's pretty oblivious to her.) Okay, it's wrong. So Spike does one wrong thing. He's not a saint and he's not perfect; he's allowed to make mistakes. That doesn't negate his entire redemptive journey, it just means that he's "human," ie, he makes mistakes like anyone. Angel has certainly made his share of mistakes as well; this doesn't even compare to the lawyer buffet or smothering Wesley or the mind-wipe. So yeah, Spike makes a mistake. It's not character regression or an attempt to erase his redemptive journey--it's just an attempt to characterize him as a complex character and not a cookie-cutter hero.
Of course, I could be wrong and S5 could suck and totally destroy Spike. This is just my positivista speculation based on my current knowledge of what's going to happen.
So. I've been thinking about Spike's role on AtS. Everyone seems to have a different opinion, from "He's taking over the show!" to "His journey has been completely dismissed and now he only exists to serve Angel's story." I think my opinion falls somewhere in between: like the well-known promotional poster suggests, the show has basically become the Angel and Spike show. I don't think Spike has taken over, because Angel is just as significant plot- and story- wise as he ever was. But now Spike is equally important, in a way that both illuminates Angel's story and continues Spike's own journey. (The other characters still matter, of course, but they are all firmly in secondary/supporting character positions. Meanwhile Spike, because his story is so significantly intwined with Angel's, is more than just another supporing character).
Spike went through a redemptive journey that culminated in him dying to save the world. I really don't get it when I see people complaining that his "redemption" story isn't continuing. That's because Spike's redemption story already happened. You really can't get much more redemptive than dying to save the world.
I kind of get the impression that some people really expect Spike to be "perfect" now. I mean, really, it seems that people want him to put on a monk's robe, swear off all earthly pleasures, and travel the world performing selfless acts of goodness and imparting wisdom to those less enlightened than he.
But, um, guys? That would be boring. And maybe the path to enlightenment does mean that you shed your earthly personality and become one with the divine or something like that, but I'd rather that Spike still be Spike. And Spike has always been one to revel in earthly pleasures and to do what he wants regardless of what anyone else thinks. That's not character regression; that's just consistent characterization.
In early season seven, Spike had been driven insane by Buffy-abuse, soul-remorse, and First Evil manipulation. When he started to come out of that, he got hit by mind-control, more guilt, and a few weeks of torture. So yeah, his personality was pretty subdued. He was weak and broken, and just barely starting to put himself back together. It wasn't until Get it Done, when he reclaimed the duster and kicked some demon ass, that he really started to get himself together. He became empowered again because he realized that he could be effective and do good--the duster wasn't a symbol of Spike's murderous past, but of his strength. Another important step in Spike's growth was when he realized, in Lies My Parents Told Me, that his mother really had loved him--an important step for him to regain his self-esteem and start to get over his dependence on Buffy's approval. (It came with some really cheesy pop-psychology speechifying thanks to Fury's unsubtle writing, and along with some really muddled message about the demon not being the person, except for Spike who still loved his mother as a demon, but whatever. Let's focus on the positive for now.) Spike made the decision, of his own free will, not to kill the man who'd just tortured him and who had lied to and manipulated Buffy. He kept his bad-ass attitude intact, and didn't succumb to moaning and weeping and remorse which would have gotten him killed. And this story concluded in Chosen, with Spike again choosing of his own free will to do the right thing--and he dies with attitude fully intact, laughing in the face of death.
The duster and the bad-ass attitude were a significant part of Spike's reclamation of his self-esteem and his confidence and his rebuilding of his identity. He took these symbols of his evil past and re-wrote their significance, reclaimed them as part of his new identity as a man who does what's right. He embraced what was good about his past--his confidence, strength, independence, represented by the duster and the bleached hair and the cigarettes and the attitude--and used it to further his growth into a good man. He's a good man who isn't weak and passive and conformist, but rather, a good man who embodies everything we always loved about Spike--he's passionate and powerful and does what he wants regardless of what anyone says.
So when someone says "Spike should get rid of the bleached hair and the duster, he's outgrown those symbols," I have to disagree. Spike has reclaimed those symobls and made them part of his identity as a good man. I never liked wussy, pathetic, ineffective William, and I hated the wussy, pathetic, ineffective Spilliam we got in early S7. I am a redemptionist, but redemption to me never meant that Spike has to give up everything that makes him Spike. He could change his moral orientation without losing that strength and independence and power that made him who he was. Yes, he had to be torn down and had to rebuild himself in order to do it. But the passive Spike of S7 wasn't the goal; it was just part of the process of rebuilding.
So, this takes us to AtS season five. The way I see it, the first few episodes are about playing catch-up, getting the AtS audience comfortable with who Spike is now, and setting up how Spike behaves in this new situation. I think the one valid criticism of Spike's journey on BtVS is that he never really got out from under Buffy's influence--one could argue that even his final act was done to make her life easier, not for humanity in general. So the show has to clarify that yes, Spike really truly is good now. We see him choosing to help Angel (who he hates) rather than become corporeal (what he wants most) in Just Rewards, and we see him choose to save Fred rather than become corporeal in Hellbound. Then, he decides that he doesn't want to risk the danger of hurting others that becoming corporeal might cause, so he decides it's not so bad being a ghost. It's very, very clear here that he's making the choice to give up his own desires not just to help Buffy (who's nowhere in the picture here) but to help strangers, people he barely knows, and people he dislikes. Redemption pretty well established.
These episodes have functioned basically as an epilogue to the story of Spike becoming an established good guy, and a set-up to the story of Spike as a good guy. Now what we're going to get is the story of Angel and Spike, two vampires with souls who fight for good and struggle over what that means and whether it's worth it and all that stuff. But I don't think that the old "Is Spike really good, or is he eeeeeevil?" plot is going to work anymore, because Spike as good guy has been established. He might go "beige," like Angel does, but it's not going to be something permanent.
Now I'm going to mention episode 8, so if you're spoiler-phobic, stop reading!
I'm mostly unspoiled for episodes 5, 6, and 7, so I don't know exactly how Spike's story is going to go from now on. But I did read
bubonicplague's summary for episode 8, so I'll comment on how that relates to my current feelings. I had a very negative reaction to episode 8, which I read right after I saw the very disappointing episode 3 (in which Spike was mostly an irritating, unsympathetic nuisance--though I'm now thinking that was mostly due to the crappiness of the writing and wasn't intentional). But when I think about episode 8 in the context of episode 4, it makes a lot more sense.Episode 4 sets up this idea of "desire bends reality," and as we've always known about Spike, when he wants something, he's not going to give up. Angel, OTOH, is the master of giving up--whether it comes to his relationship with Buffy, the ring of Amara, his day as a human, his relationship with his son. His struggle has always been about making himself care, and as season five is showing us, Angel is once again starting to give up. He lost Cordy and Connor, he sold out to W&H, nothing matters, blah blah existential crisis, etc. He likes being a vampire (as established in ep 3) and doesn't believe in the shanshu prophecy (as established in ep 4). Meanwhile, Spike wants to do good, and wants to show up Angel--what better method than getting that shanshu. He's not stealing the shanshu; it wasn't Angel's to begin with. Desire bends reality, remember? Spike wants it more than Angel. Angel might not get it. Angel's not so special anymore. Bet that throws Angel's whole universe into disarray--he's always loved his role as the special one, the boss that everything revolves around.
I think my fear of episode 8 was that Spike would be portrayed as a bad guy. But really, it seems like Spike's the one with more passion to be a good guy (and to show up Angel, heee). Angel, who is once again close to giving up, is less of a good guy than Spike here. Why does Spike defeat Pavayne? Because "all he had to do was want it bad enough." Seems like he learned an important lesson that's definitely coming into play in this whole shanshu competition.
I'd be a lot more worried about episode 8 if episode 4 hadn't pretty firmly established that Spike is a good guy. This isn't a competition between bad souled vampire Spike and good souled vampire Angel. It's a competition between Spike, the souled vampire who still cares, and Angel, the souled vampire who is close to giving up.
Seriously, the more I think about it, episode 8 is like a gift to Spike fans. Spike comes in and fucks up Angel's whole universe--shows Angel that he's not so special anymore, that Spike is serious competition; he's just as good as Angel. Spike threatens to win what Angel always assumed was his own reward, and he kicks Angel's ass. Why are Spike fans upset again?
And of course, there's the whole Harmony thing, which seems to be what Spike fans are most upset about. I agree that we have reason to worry that Fury will use it against us--"Look, Spike's not good! Look how he uses women!" (Completely ignoring that Buffy did the exact same thing to Spike and we were still expected to consider her a hero).
But as an act on its own, ignoring how the writers might try to spin it, it doesn't seem like such a big deal. It's showing us the Spike that's passionate and the Spike who revels in earthly pleasures--the Spike who helped save the world in S2 so that he wouldn't lose dog racing and soccer. The Spike who ordered spicy buffalo wings and raved about blooming onions. That's part of Spike's personality; it's not regression. There's nothing wrong with having sex--he is not, in any way, tied to Buffy. She left him to die, remember? She said that their relationship didn't have to mean anything, she kissed Angel and dated Wood, and Spike didn't believe her when she said she loved him. Spike doesn't owe her anything. If he wants to get with Harmony, good for him.
I was always frustrated that we were supposed to think his rejection of Anya in S7 was a good thing. Why shouldn't he get a little enjoyment out of his unlife? He and Anya didn't owe Buffy and Xander anything--those people used, abused, and threw them away, in the process giving up any say they had over Spike and Anya's sex lives. I'm going to blame his rejection of Anya on his general weak and Buffy-whipped state, and be glad that he's getting over it with Harmony.
That leaves the one objection that it's wrong for Spike to use Harmony when she cares about him. (Does Spike actually know Harmony cares about him? I'm not sure; he's pretty oblivious to her.) Okay, it's wrong. So Spike does one wrong thing. He's not a saint and he's not perfect; he's allowed to make mistakes. That doesn't negate his entire redemptive journey, it just means that he's "human," ie, he makes mistakes like anyone. Angel has certainly made his share of mistakes as well; this doesn't even compare to the lawyer buffet or smothering Wesley or the mind-wipe. So yeah, Spike makes a mistake. It's not character regression or an attempt to erase his redemptive journey--it's just an attempt to characterize him as a complex character and not a cookie-cutter hero.
Of course, I could be wrong and S5 could suck and totally destroy Spike. This is just my positivista speculation based on my current knowledge of what's going to happen.
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(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-25 10:24 pm (UTC)That eternal resignation is one of the reasons I can't stand Angel. I understand where it comes from -- he had no choice in whether he became good, and so his entire existence as it currently stands comes from the whim and power of another -- but that doesn't mean I like it. (I also understand why Buffy demonstrates some of the behavior she does, but again... neither liking nor excusing. Some of it just has to be chalked up to improper brain chemistry and she needs to see a therapist. Plus the whole "personal responsibility" thing. That'd be good for her to learn. I'm talking about Angel. Right!)
It's not terribly surprising, though. A souled vampire with super strength and knowledge of evildoers' behavior waits around for 100 years and an external impetus before he finally gets off his ass and dedicates himself in any shape or form? Impressive. *cough* If they actually do go the route of not making him the Big Fated Champion Type (which I'm still not convinced will happen), I think it'd be perfectly logical. Who wants destiny to pick out a hero that can't function without daily performance reviews and morale-building sessions?
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-25 10:46 pm (UTC)THANK YOU!
As a Spike fan and an Angel fan I agree. I'm finally getting over my general disgust with how CC and Cordelia was treated and beginning to see these two characters with clearer eyes. I like that both are flawed, interesting and since Cordy's no longer there to do it, I think that Spike will end up being the one that lights the fire under Angel's ass and gets him to get over himself and play to win if he wants that Shanshu. It doesn't matter if either of them end up with it. I just think the journey will be interesting and fun if they can keep the Keebler Elf out of the middle of it.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-25 11:10 pm (UTC)(So long as SMG stays away. Keep the show clean!)
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-25 11:23 pm (UTC)I did tonight when I turned off the telly after the 100 Scariest TV Moments program finished and I Still Know What You Did Last Summer came on.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-25 10:42 pm (UTC)And the duster itself went through the same metaphorical as well as literal transformation as Spike. Both went golden in the light of sacrifice. Both duster and boy are currently incorporeal as a result, and both will presumably be corporealised the same. So I'm as cool with the duster as with Spike finally getting some. It's not under false pretences, he's been desperately in need of some casual sex and so Go Spike! I'm just glad he's been allowed to have use of his dick again.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-25 10:46 pm (UTC)I'm rather disappointed that people are so upset about Spike's story now, actually. I am unsure what people want and in some cases, I suspect that the Spike in canon isn't even the Spike they love or want.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-25 10:57 pm (UTC)But I was cheering when Spike put on the duster and lit up in GID, and when he bitchslapped Wood in LMPTM, and I am loving Spike on AtS beyond reason so far, in all his snarky, bad-tempered, impatient, occasionally obsessive glory.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-25 11:29 pm (UTC)I love the duster, the hair, the attitude, the snark and, especially, the touches of moral ambiguity, the sensualiam and the darker impulses. All those aspects of his character are coming over in spades on AtS. I'm lovin' it.
I'm steering clear of the episode 8 spoilage, but I'm figuring that it's probably wankable, or at least not all that bad, provided you accept that Spike is gonna screw up and make some mistakes, or take advantage of the odd opportunity for his own benefit, or occasionally act a little dodgy. But that's Spike. He's not a traditional kind of hero, but that's a good thing, 'cause white-hat heroes are boring.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-26 01:18 am (UTC)Putting them together seems facile and, yes, demeaning to both of them, spell or no spell. Harmony shouldn't want him because he treated her like shit and shows no evidence of having changed; Spike shouldn't want her because, hello, airhead bimbo who he abused in the past and he can do better by choosing anyone else, etc. The signs all point to Fury being all jocular and "because I can"-y with this particularly distasteful coupling. There's absolutely no reason to revisit this pairing, except because he thinks it's funny and that doing so will stick it to those who hate him.
Nah -- I think I'll remain upset with this episode, despite all the reasonable things you've pointed out. Feels far more comfortable to be pissed at Fury and ME, and when they do end up fucking Spike up, at least I won't feel like a chump anymore (well, any more than I do already).
Thoughts about ep 8...spoilerphobes beware of this post...
Date: 2003-10-26 03:47 am (UTC)But the confrontation between the Aurelius boys was necessary. It needed to happen, and has needed to happen for over a century. The playing field is finally leveled, and though your brother resents it immensely, he does suddenly sees you in a different light. Spike went from unworthy little brother to peer.
Despite anything else in ep8, it was necessary to accomplish this if they have any chance of working as true allies this season.
So yeah, I liked that aspect of the ep.
Re: Thoughts about ep 8...spoilerphobes beware of this post...
Date: 2003-10-26 03:49 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-27 07:47 pm (UTC)And I agree, it's really unlikely Spike will go evil. It would take something awfully drastic. Maybe if he lost his soul, or if he was put under a spell or something. Maybe Drusilla could put him in thrall and have him do evil things and then he'd repent when he realized what he'd done -- and Angel would try to reassure him by saying what he didn't wasn't so bad, leading everyone else to see how very gray, how very dark gray Angel is becoming.
After episode 8, I'll come back and read your entire post.
Throwing in my two cents a little late
Date: 2003-10-28 04:22 am (UTC)I see what you're saying, and I have mixed opinions. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I like Spike, but I love Angel.
To me, it doesn't seem like a vampire that doesn't care vs. vampire that does situation. I think it's more of who Angel and Spike are.
I think that Angel has lost everything that has ever really mattered to him - Cordy, Connor, the visions that directed him. (I don't count Buffy. She was lost way before Chosen.) I do believe that some of those things are his own fault, but not all.
Spike, on the other hand, has lost as well, but I don't think the magnitude of Spike's loss compares with Angel's. Spike lost Dru and Buffy. Both of those things are horrible, but it's nothing that an average person wouldn't experience.
Ultimately, I think that Spike is kinder than Angel. Angel has sacrificed things that mean more to him than his life - leaving Buffy, trying to kill Cordy. He was ready to kill the woman he loves, and I don't think Spike could've brought himself to kill Buffy. Not even to save the world. On the other hand, I think Angel is darker than Spike. Angel is a good hero, but he isn't really a good soul - very gray. ;) Spike might not be willing to give up as much, but I believe he's a kinder, better soul. To me it's more who they are rather than what they are.
Neo-Spike
Date: 2003-10-28 06:15 pm (UTC)I've been quite pleased with Spike so far on Angel. I think they're striking a nice balance. He isn't center stage all the time. He was quite peripheral to "Unleashed" (which I liked less than other eps. this season, but not because of the light use of Spike).
I think his attitude is quite in line with his situation, and I'll be interested to see whether he loosens up now that the immediate threat to his existence has been removed.
BTW, thanks for the spoiler warning! Nice to know I can read here safely.