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Aug. 6th, 2003 02:11 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rusty_haloI accidentally fell asleep early last night, and was happy to discover some really interesting conversations when I checked my LJ this morning:
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queenofthorns on Spike's redemptive journey. I love her comments about Intervention (probably my favorite episode aside from Fool for Love) and ITA with her on the boringness of Spike once he had a soul (and ME's annoying inconsistency on the whole soul issue). I disagree with her idea that Spike originally sought to have the chip removed, though; the only way I can even slightly reconcile myself with the soul is if Spike chose it (kind of as a shortcut on the free will redemption path). And I do think the writers intended it all along (see here - the writing was very consciously constructed so as to strongly imply that he intended to get the chip removed but to never actually say it flat out). I do agree that it was incredibly poorly done (partly, I think, because JM was scheduled to be away filming his role in that Star Trek movie that he didn't end up getting, partly because JM wasn't even told what Spike wanted, and partly because the writers hadn't really thought out the issue very well and so went with a cheap "gotcha!" instead of something more interesting).
shipperx on the differences in personality between Spike and Angel. I love her posts because 1) she's really insightful and 2) she likes both characters and doesn't try to minimize one to defend the other.
rahirah on the whole attempted rape thing, and some really interesting discussion in her comments about souls and redemption and all of it. I ::heart:: miggy.
shipperx also has some excellent comments that ITA with here in rahirah's journal on the whole attempted rape/domestic abuse thing.
I think a large part of the reason there's so much disagreement is that the writers really did a very poor job of 1) figuring out what they wanted to say and 2) saying it. So many of these issues really are completely ambiguous; I certainly don't hold it against anyone who interprets them differently than I do.
In season two, which IMO has the most well-constructed story arc, the writers knew what they wanted to happen, and took great risks to make it happen. They didn't cop out, and ended up telling an incredibly powerful story because of it. I don't think they ever achieved that again, though, probably for a mix of reasons: they disagreed about what they wanted to do, they didn't know what they wanted to do, they bowed to fan or industry pressure, they had bad luck with actors leaving at the wrong times, Joss left way too much power in very incapable hands, they just didn't bother thinking things out clearly, they got afraid of muddling their black & white universe with shades of grey, etc., and as a result they ended up making some really wishy-washy, inconsistent, and just plain stupid decisions.
My opinions on these issues are here, here, and here, as always.
(I'll be the first to admit that my personal ethics would be considered "screwed up" by many people. I don't give a crap about doing things for the "greater good" or altruism or whatever other nonsense (which is why soulled Spike sacrificing himself to save the world just irritates me). I care about doing good things for the people I care about, and for myself. This usually means doing things that also benefit the "greater good" too, so there's rarely conflict. But I see no problem with unsouled Spike doing good solely because he thinks Buffy wants him to and not because of some internal "I must do good for the greater benefit of mankind" or whatever. I also think everyone has selfish motivations for nearly everything that they do; it's just that very few people are aware of it or admit it to themselves. Maybe this is why I tend to prefer antiheros to self-righteous heroic types.)
So anyway, the reason I fell asleep early last night was that I was watching The Empire Strikes Back for about the billionth time. It's my favorite movie of all time; I still clearly remember the first time I saw it, when I was seven, and the complete awe and instant obsession I felt for it.
I love it because it's really dark and ambiguous. I love Luke Skywalker; all those people who insist that he's nothing but boring and whiny--did you see this movie? The kid would so have turned to the dark side if Artoo hadn't fixed the hyperdrive at the end. It was his cockiness and arrogance that nearly ruined everything; Yoda told him repeatedly that he couldn't help, so what did he do? Didn't listen to anyone, acted out of arrogance, nearly got himself killed, and nearly got Leia killed in the process since she's the one who had to rescue him. As far as whether Luke would have turned to the dark side--there's tons of evidence to show that he would: Yoda pointing out that there's "much anger in him, like his father," his seeing his own face when he chopped off "Vader's" head, his sense of betrayal ("Ben, why didn't you tell me?"), etc. He's completely disillusioned by the end, which is why his struggle really interests me. (I also read the tie-in novels--repeatedly--when I was very, very young, and they go into more detail about his struggle, so that may also be part of the reason I find it so interesting). And Mark Hammill does an astounding job; I totally don't get why so many people don't think he's a good actor. Look at his face when he finds out who his father really is; I don't think I could make my mouth turn like that if I tried. The calm when he chooses to die (it seems) rather than join Vader, the betrayal when he realizes that Ben lied to him, the arrogance when he first starts to fight Vader--it's all done so well.
This is also the film where we really get to see Han's struggle between dark and light--the first things he does in the film are 1) risk his life to save Luke, 2) announce that he's leaving, and 3) risk his life to save Leia. He really is torn between his love for his friends and his selfish/loner lifestyle, and it's so interestng to watch. Of course, it also helps that Harrison Ford is an excellent actor too.
And I just love love love the Han/Leia relationship. It's the kind of relationship that Spike/Buffy (and Cordelia/Angel) had the potential to become, before everything went to hell. It's not about silly romance novel illusions or fantasies that have nothing to do with the actual person. It's not about wacky power dynamics where one person has all the control. It's about two people who genuinely know each other, flaws and all, and who meet in the middle and grow together as human beings. (Yes, Joss, people can actually grow together; you don't have to be a baked cookie before you can engage in relationships). Han helps Leia overcome her coldness, constant need to be in control, and her disconnect from other people and personal relationships. Leia helps Han learn the value of fighting for a cause that you believe in. They both learn that it's important to have relationships and not keep yourself distant all the time. And they keep their snark, they take turns saving each other, they work together and have fun, they don't descend into melodrama, etc. And also, they have the best line in any love story ever: "I love you." "I know." It's just so perfect, and so Han, and totally captures the essence of his character, while at the same time, the terrified/brave look on his face and the teeny little hint of smile he gives her shows that he understands and he loves her too. It's just awesome in every way.
(I should also add that my copy is the real version, not that gigantic blasphemous load of crap they call the "Special Edition." I was thinking of writing something up about the numerous reasons that 95% of the changes they made utterly suck, but I probably should be doing more important things. So suffice to say that I truly can't stand the special editions.)
queenofthorns on Spike's redemptive journey. I love her comments about Intervention (probably my favorite episode aside from Fool for Love) and ITA with her on the boringness of Spike once he had a soul (and ME's annoying inconsistency on the whole soul issue). I disagree with her idea that Spike originally sought to have the chip removed, though; the only way I can even slightly reconcile myself with the soul is if Spike chose it (kind of as a shortcut on the free will redemption path). And I do think the writers intended it all along (see here - the writing was very consciously constructed so as to strongly imply that he intended to get the chip removed but to never actually say it flat out). I do agree that it was incredibly poorly done (partly, I think, because JM was scheduled to be away filming his role in that Star Trek movie that he didn't end up getting, partly because JM wasn't even told what Spike wanted, and partly because the writers hadn't really thought out the issue very well and so went with a cheap "gotcha!" instead of something more interesting).shipperx on the differences in personality between Spike and Angel. I love her posts because 1) she's really insightful and 2) she likes both characters and doesn't try to minimize one to defend the other.rahirah on the whole attempted rape thing, and some really interesting discussion in her comments about souls and redemption and all of it. I ::heart:: miggy.shipperx also has some excellent comments that ITA with here in rahirah's journal on the whole attempted rape/domestic abuse thing.I think a large part of the reason there's so much disagreement is that the writers really did a very poor job of 1) figuring out what they wanted to say and 2) saying it. So many of these issues really are completely ambiguous; I certainly don't hold it against anyone who interprets them differently than I do.
In season two, which IMO has the most well-constructed story arc, the writers knew what they wanted to happen, and took great risks to make it happen. They didn't cop out, and ended up telling an incredibly powerful story because of it. I don't think they ever achieved that again, though, probably for a mix of reasons: they disagreed about what they wanted to do, they didn't know what they wanted to do, they bowed to fan or industry pressure, they had bad luck with actors leaving at the wrong times, Joss left way too much power in very incapable hands, they just didn't bother thinking things out clearly, they got afraid of muddling their black & white universe with shades of grey, etc., and as a result they ended up making some really wishy-washy, inconsistent, and just plain stupid decisions.
My opinions on these issues are here, here, and here, as always.
(I'll be the first to admit that my personal ethics would be considered "screwed up" by many people. I don't give a crap about doing things for the "greater good" or altruism or whatever other nonsense (which is why soulled Spike sacrificing himself to save the world just irritates me). I care about doing good things for the people I care about, and for myself. This usually means doing things that also benefit the "greater good" too, so there's rarely conflict. But I see no problem with unsouled Spike doing good solely because he thinks Buffy wants him to and not because of some internal "I must do good for the greater benefit of mankind" or whatever. I also think everyone has selfish motivations for nearly everything that they do; it's just that very few people are aware of it or admit it to themselves. Maybe this is why I tend to prefer antiheros to self-righteous heroic types.)
So anyway, the reason I fell asleep early last night was that I was watching The Empire Strikes Back for about the billionth time. It's my favorite movie of all time; I still clearly remember the first time I saw it, when I was seven, and the complete awe and instant obsession I felt for it.
I love it because it's really dark and ambiguous. I love Luke Skywalker; all those people who insist that he's nothing but boring and whiny--did you see this movie? The kid would so have turned to the dark side if Artoo hadn't fixed the hyperdrive at the end. It was his cockiness and arrogance that nearly ruined everything; Yoda told him repeatedly that he couldn't help, so what did he do? Didn't listen to anyone, acted out of arrogance, nearly got himself killed, and nearly got Leia killed in the process since she's the one who had to rescue him. As far as whether Luke would have turned to the dark side--there's tons of evidence to show that he would: Yoda pointing out that there's "much anger in him, like his father," his seeing his own face when he chopped off "Vader's" head, his sense of betrayal ("Ben, why didn't you tell me?"), etc. He's completely disillusioned by the end, which is why his struggle really interests me. (I also read the tie-in novels--repeatedly--when I was very, very young, and they go into more detail about his struggle, so that may also be part of the reason I find it so interesting). And Mark Hammill does an astounding job; I totally don't get why so many people don't think he's a good actor. Look at his face when he finds out who his father really is; I don't think I could make my mouth turn like that if I tried. The calm when he chooses to die (it seems) rather than join Vader, the betrayal when he realizes that Ben lied to him, the arrogance when he first starts to fight Vader--it's all done so well.
This is also the film where we really get to see Han's struggle between dark and light--the first things he does in the film are 1) risk his life to save Luke, 2) announce that he's leaving, and 3) risk his life to save Leia. He really is torn between his love for his friends and his selfish/loner lifestyle, and it's so interestng to watch. Of course, it also helps that Harrison Ford is an excellent actor too.
And I just love love love the Han/Leia relationship. It's the kind of relationship that Spike/Buffy (and Cordelia/Angel) had the potential to become, before everything went to hell. It's not about silly romance novel illusions or fantasies that have nothing to do with the actual person. It's not about wacky power dynamics where one person has all the control. It's about two people who genuinely know each other, flaws and all, and who meet in the middle and grow together as human beings. (Yes, Joss, people can actually grow together; you don't have to be a baked cookie before you can engage in relationships). Han helps Leia overcome her coldness, constant need to be in control, and her disconnect from other people and personal relationships. Leia helps Han learn the value of fighting for a cause that you believe in. They both learn that it's important to have relationships and not keep yourself distant all the time. And they keep their snark, they take turns saving each other, they work together and have fun, they don't descend into melodrama, etc. And also, they have the best line in any love story ever: "I love you." "I know." It's just so perfect, and so Han, and totally captures the essence of his character, while at the same time, the terrified/brave look on his face and the teeny little hint of smile he gives her shows that he understands and he loves her too. It's just awesome in every way.
(I should also add that my copy is the real version, not that gigantic blasphemous load of crap they call the "Special Edition." I was thinking of writing something up about the numerous reasons that 95% of the changes they made utterly suck, but I probably should be doing more important things. So suffice to say that I truly can't stand the special editions.)
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(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-06 08:02 pm (UTC)I don't think Lucas ever had the ability to tell a good love story, actually. He was just lucky that he had people like Leigh Brackett and Irvin Kershner and Harrison Ford doing it for him.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-06 08:31 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-07 12:54 am (UTC)ESB is my very favorite of the SW; I totally knew all the dialogue by heart...
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-07 05:23 am (UTC)Empire is the good movie because it's the one where Luke makes a decision. He's swept along, barely comprehending, in the first film, and a cipher in the third. But in number two he chooses to go after his friends. Dark side, shmark side. You don't abandon people like that.
Buffy knows that, at least.