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Aug. 6th, 2003 02:11 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rusty_haloI accidentally fell asleep early last night, and was happy to discover some really interesting conversations when I checked my LJ this morning:
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
queenofthorns on Spike's redemptive journey. I love her comments about Intervention (probably my favorite episode aside from Fool for Love) and ITA with her on the boringness of Spike once he had a soul (and ME's annoying inconsistency on the whole soul issue). I disagree with her idea that Spike originally sought to have the chip removed, though; the only way I can even slightly reconcile myself with the soul is if Spike chose it (kind of as a shortcut on the free will redemption path). And I do think the writers intended it all along (see here - the writing was very consciously constructed so as to strongly imply that he intended to get the chip removed but to never actually say it flat out). I do agree that it was incredibly poorly done (partly, I think, because JM was scheduled to be away filming his role in that Star Trek movie that he didn't end up getting, partly because JM wasn't even told what Spike wanted, and partly because the writers hadn't really thought out the issue very well and so went with a cheap "gotcha!" instead of something more interesting).
shipperx on the differences in personality between Spike and Angel. I love her posts because 1) she's really insightful and 2) she likes both characters and doesn't try to minimize one to defend the other.
rahirah on the whole attempted rape thing, and some really interesting discussion in her comments about souls and redemption and all of it. I ::heart:: miggy.
shipperx also has some excellent comments that ITA with here in rahirah's journal on the whole attempted rape/domestic abuse thing.
I think a large part of the reason there's so much disagreement is that the writers really did a very poor job of 1) figuring out what they wanted to say and 2) saying it. So many of these issues really are completely ambiguous; I certainly don't hold it against anyone who interprets them differently than I do.
In season two, which IMO has the most well-constructed story arc, the writers knew what they wanted to happen, and took great risks to make it happen. They didn't cop out, and ended up telling an incredibly powerful story because of it. I don't think they ever achieved that again, though, probably for a mix of reasons: they disagreed about what they wanted to do, they didn't know what they wanted to do, they bowed to fan or industry pressure, they had bad luck with actors leaving at the wrong times, Joss left way too much power in very incapable hands, they just didn't bother thinking things out clearly, they got afraid of muddling their black & white universe with shades of grey, etc., and as a result they ended up making some really wishy-washy, inconsistent, and just plain stupid decisions.
My opinions on these issues are here, here, and here, as always.
(I'll be the first to admit that my personal ethics would be considered "screwed up" by many people. I don't give a crap about doing things for the "greater good" or altruism or whatever other nonsense (which is why soulled Spike sacrificing himself to save the world just irritates me). I care about doing good things for the people I care about, and for myself. This usually means doing things that also benefit the "greater good" too, so there's rarely conflict. But I see no problem with unsouled Spike doing good solely because he thinks Buffy wants him to and not because of some internal "I must do good for the greater benefit of mankind" or whatever. I also think everyone has selfish motivations for nearly everything that they do; it's just that very few people are aware of it or admit it to themselves. Maybe this is why I tend to prefer antiheros to self-righteous heroic types.)
So anyway, the reason I fell asleep early last night was that I was watching The Empire Strikes Back for about the billionth time. It's my favorite movie of all time; I still clearly remember the first time I saw it, when I was seven, and the complete awe and instant obsession I felt for it.
I love it because it's really dark and ambiguous. I love Luke Skywalker; all those people who insist that he's nothing but boring and whiny--did you see this movie? The kid would so have turned to the dark side if Artoo hadn't fixed the hyperdrive at the end. It was his cockiness and arrogance that nearly ruined everything; Yoda told him repeatedly that he couldn't help, so what did he do? Didn't listen to anyone, acted out of arrogance, nearly got himself killed, and nearly got Leia killed in the process since she's the one who had to rescue him. As far as whether Luke would have turned to the dark side--there's tons of evidence to show that he would: Yoda pointing out that there's "much anger in him, like his father," his seeing his own face when he chopped off "Vader's" head, his sense of betrayal ("Ben, why didn't you tell me?"), etc. He's completely disillusioned by the end, which is why his struggle really interests me. (I also read the tie-in novels--repeatedly--when I was very, very young, and they go into more detail about his struggle, so that may also be part of the reason I find it so interesting). And Mark Hammill does an astounding job; I totally don't get why so many people don't think he's a good actor. Look at his face when he finds out who his father really is; I don't think I could make my mouth turn like that if I tried. The calm when he chooses to die (it seems) rather than join Vader, the betrayal when he realizes that Ben lied to him, the arrogance when he first starts to fight Vader--it's all done so well.
This is also the film where we really get to see Han's struggle between dark and light--the first things he does in the film are 1) risk his life to save Luke, 2) announce that he's leaving, and 3) risk his life to save Leia. He really is torn between his love for his friends and his selfish/loner lifestyle, and it's so interestng to watch. Of course, it also helps that Harrison Ford is an excellent actor too.
And I just love love love the Han/Leia relationship. It's the kind of relationship that Spike/Buffy (and Cordelia/Angel) had the potential to become, before everything went to hell. It's not about silly romance novel illusions or fantasies that have nothing to do with the actual person. It's not about wacky power dynamics where one person has all the control. It's about two people who genuinely know each other, flaws and all, and who meet in the middle and grow together as human beings. (Yes, Joss, people can actually grow together; you don't have to be a baked cookie before you can engage in relationships). Han helps Leia overcome her coldness, constant need to be in control, and her disconnect from other people and personal relationships. Leia helps Han learn the value of fighting for a cause that you believe in. They both learn that it's important to have relationships and not keep yourself distant all the time. And they keep their snark, they take turns saving each other, they work together and have fun, they don't descend into melodrama, etc. And also, they have the best line in any love story ever: "I love you." "I know." It's just so perfect, and so Han, and totally captures the essence of his character, while at the same time, the terrified/brave look on his face and the teeny little hint of smile he gives her shows that he understands and he loves her too. It's just awesome in every way.
(I should also add that my copy is the real version, not that gigantic blasphemous load of crap they call the "Special Edition." I was thinking of writing something up about the numerous reasons that 95% of the changes they made utterly suck, but I probably should be doing more important things. So suffice to say that I truly can't stand the special editions.)
queenofthorns on Spike's redemptive journey. I love her comments about Intervention (probably my favorite episode aside from Fool for Love) and ITA with her on the boringness of Spike once he had a soul (and ME's annoying inconsistency on the whole soul issue). I disagree with her idea that Spike originally sought to have the chip removed, though; the only way I can even slightly reconcile myself with the soul is if Spike chose it (kind of as a shortcut on the free will redemption path). And I do think the writers intended it all along (see here - the writing was very consciously constructed so as to strongly imply that he intended to get the chip removed but to never actually say it flat out). I do agree that it was incredibly poorly done (partly, I think, because JM was scheduled to be away filming his role in that Star Trek movie that he didn't end up getting, partly because JM wasn't even told what Spike wanted, and partly because the writers hadn't really thought out the issue very well and so went with a cheap "gotcha!" instead of something more interesting).shipperx on the differences in personality between Spike and Angel. I love her posts because 1) she's really insightful and 2) she likes both characters and doesn't try to minimize one to defend the other.rahirah on the whole attempted rape thing, and some really interesting discussion in her comments about souls and redemption and all of it. I ::heart:: miggy.shipperx also has some excellent comments that ITA with here in rahirah's journal on the whole attempted rape/domestic abuse thing.I think a large part of the reason there's so much disagreement is that the writers really did a very poor job of 1) figuring out what they wanted to say and 2) saying it. So many of these issues really are completely ambiguous; I certainly don't hold it against anyone who interprets them differently than I do.
In season two, which IMO has the most well-constructed story arc, the writers knew what they wanted to happen, and took great risks to make it happen. They didn't cop out, and ended up telling an incredibly powerful story because of it. I don't think they ever achieved that again, though, probably for a mix of reasons: they disagreed about what they wanted to do, they didn't know what they wanted to do, they bowed to fan or industry pressure, they had bad luck with actors leaving at the wrong times, Joss left way too much power in very incapable hands, they just didn't bother thinking things out clearly, they got afraid of muddling their black & white universe with shades of grey, etc., and as a result they ended up making some really wishy-washy, inconsistent, and just plain stupid decisions.
My opinions on these issues are here, here, and here, as always.
(I'll be the first to admit that my personal ethics would be considered "screwed up" by many people. I don't give a crap about doing things for the "greater good" or altruism or whatever other nonsense (which is why soulled Spike sacrificing himself to save the world just irritates me). I care about doing good things for the people I care about, and for myself. This usually means doing things that also benefit the "greater good" too, so there's rarely conflict. But I see no problem with unsouled Spike doing good solely because he thinks Buffy wants him to and not because of some internal "I must do good for the greater benefit of mankind" or whatever. I also think everyone has selfish motivations for nearly everything that they do; it's just that very few people are aware of it or admit it to themselves. Maybe this is why I tend to prefer antiheros to self-righteous heroic types.)
So anyway, the reason I fell asleep early last night was that I was watching The Empire Strikes Back for about the billionth time. It's my favorite movie of all time; I still clearly remember the first time I saw it, when I was seven, and the complete awe and instant obsession I felt for it.
I love it because it's really dark and ambiguous. I love Luke Skywalker; all those people who insist that he's nothing but boring and whiny--did you see this movie? The kid would so have turned to the dark side if Artoo hadn't fixed the hyperdrive at the end. It was his cockiness and arrogance that nearly ruined everything; Yoda told him repeatedly that he couldn't help, so what did he do? Didn't listen to anyone, acted out of arrogance, nearly got himself killed, and nearly got Leia killed in the process since she's the one who had to rescue him. As far as whether Luke would have turned to the dark side--there's tons of evidence to show that he would: Yoda pointing out that there's "much anger in him, like his father," his seeing his own face when he chopped off "Vader's" head, his sense of betrayal ("Ben, why didn't you tell me?"), etc. He's completely disillusioned by the end, which is why his struggle really interests me. (I also read the tie-in novels--repeatedly--when I was very, very young, and they go into more detail about his struggle, so that may also be part of the reason I find it so interesting). And Mark Hammill does an astounding job; I totally don't get why so many people don't think he's a good actor. Look at his face when he finds out who his father really is; I don't think I could make my mouth turn like that if I tried. The calm when he chooses to die (it seems) rather than join Vader, the betrayal when he realizes that Ben lied to him, the arrogance when he first starts to fight Vader--it's all done so well.
This is also the film where we really get to see Han's struggle between dark and light--the first things he does in the film are 1) risk his life to save Luke, 2) announce that he's leaving, and 3) risk his life to save Leia. He really is torn between his love for his friends and his selfish/loner lifestyle, and it's so interestng to watch. Of course, it also helps that Harrison Ford is an excellent actor too.
And I just love love love the Han/Leia relationship. It's the kind of relationship that Spike/Buffy (and Cordelia/Angel) had the potential to become, before everything went to hell. It's not about silly romance novel illusions or fantasies that have nothing to do with the actual person. It's not about wacky power dynamics where one person has all the control. It's about two people who genuinely know each other, flaws and all, and who meet in the middle and grow together as human beings. (Yes, Joss, people can actually grow together; you don't have to be a baked cookie before you can engage in relationships). Han helps Leia overcome her coldness, constant need to be in control, and her disconnect from other people and personal relationships. Leia helps Han learn the value of fighting for a cause that you believe in. They both learn that it's important to have relationships and not keep yourself distant all the time. And they keep their snark, they take turns saving each other, they work together and have fun, they don't descend into melodrama, etc. And also, they have the best line in any love story ever: "I love you." "I know." It's just so perfect, and so Han, and totally captures the essence of his character, while at the same time, the terrified/brave look on his face and the teeny little hint of smile he gives her shows that he understands and he loves her too. It's just awesome in every way.
(I should also add that my copy is the real version, not that gigantic blasphemous load of crap they call the "Special Edition." I was thinking of writing something up about the numerous reasons that 95% of the changes they made utterly suck, but I probably should be doing more important things. So suffice to say that I truly can't stand the special editions.)
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(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-06 06:41 pm (UTC)And I'm totally with you on the not understanding those who think that if something is not done out of purely altruistic love of humanity divorced of possible benefit to one's self, it's not really a good deed. One of my favorite Friends episodes shows the ultimate futility of trying to do a selfless good deed. By the end, Phoebe was searching for something to do that made someone else happy, but made her absolutely miserable, just so she could be sure that she was doing a good deed without any hope of personal payback, even to the smallest amount of personal satisfaction.
The thing about Friends was that we weren't supposed to see her quest as the good and commendable one to take. It was fine to do good if you were doing it because it made you happy. Hell, it was great! You're doing good! You're helping people! You're giving to charity! Where's the bad there?
Funny how a sitcom got that and Joss' great dramatic work that he thinks changed the world forever couldn't grasp the concept.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-06 06:59 pm (UTC)Oh, I certainly don't think *that* - Spike's helping Buffy save the world in "Becoming II" was just as much of a good thing because he was doing it so he'd still have people to eat and footie to watch as if he'd been doing it because he *loved* people. I do think, though, that love is morally neutral - in "The Gift", Buffy asked Spike to make sure that Dawn came to no harm because she already knew that Giles (and the other Scoobies too) would place his duty above his love for Buffy and Dawn. Whereas Spike, motivated solely by love, would have let the universe implode and never laid a finger on Dawn to stop it. So I think that being motivated by love certainly doesn't negate the good things that you do, but I'm not sure that love alone can make you a good person - I think you need to have a system of ethics so that you understand that hurting other people on behalf of someone that you love is kind of essential.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-06 07:00 pm (UTC)Empire also my favorite, I loved the struggle in Luke about succumbing to darkness blahblah. I hate it when people mock the Star Wars.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-06 07:09 pm (UTC)Whereas I'm in the camp saying, "Dude, I do not care that the reason the pediatric AIDS foundation got $20 million in donations was because Mafia bosses were trying to prove they had more money to throw around without it being traced back to them. (Or other similarly unrealistic situation, heh.) Look at the money!"
<i>Empire</i>
Date: 2003-08-06 07:25 pm (UTC)I can't believe I let
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-06 07:34 pm (UTC)I'm in the camp that believes that basically all acts are selfishly motivated. It's just that that selfishness can take different forms. And that doesn't mean always placing your own welfare above somebody else, because emotions also exist. Basically I just have a pet peeve with people who claim that Spike's actions are less significant than Angel's because Spike's motivation was selfish (Buffy) and Angel's was not. And I love Angel. But his motivations were just as selfish - alleviation of guilt, respect from those around him, just to mention a couple. But doing good deeds as a form of penance is just as selfishly motivated as doing good deeds to prove your love.
This is just my own personal belief system, and I totally understand that a lot of people don't feel the same way. It's the school of thought that says, when you do something you feel is good, you feel good about yourself. That's a positive motivator. Wanting that feeling is 'selfish'. Selfish isn't really the right word of course - I just believe even saints are egocentric. Heh, that's just my own personal screwed up ethics!
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-06 07:56 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-06 08:02 pm (UTC)I don't think Lucas ever had the ability to tell a good love story, actually. He was just lucky that he had people like Leigh Brackett and Irvin Kershner and Harrison Ford doing it for him.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-06 08:30 pm (UTC)Oh, and here's that link for good Original Triology fanfic that I told you about at Vulkon. www.rtis.com/nat/user/golledge/ All of the material has previously appeared in printzines, and this is pro'ly the biggest archive of old and new printzine fanfic on the net. www.fanfix.com is another option, but the quality really does vary from story to story. Stick to the Embassy and you will hopefully find something good!
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-06 08:31 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-06 09:21 pm (UTC)(Yes, Joss, people can actually grow together; you don't have to be a baked cookie before you can engage in relationships).
You've just totally nailed what bugged me so much about the whole cookie dough thing. I got a number of emails from people blasting me for complaining about it in my review of the finale (mostly because they took what I said as a personal affront, rather than looking at it for what it was -- a critique of a fictional situation for a fictional character in the finale of her story), and I could never think of a way of articulating why it was a copout to have Buffy say she couldn't be in a relationship because she wasn't "done baking." We're *never* done, or at least we shouldn't be, and putting off a relationship until you're dead is pretty stupid. :-p
I should also add that my copy is the real version, not that gigantic blasphemous load of crap they call the "Special Edition."
Woohoo! Do you have the laserdisc set too? My husband got me the Definitive Collector's Edition for Valentine's Day the year it came out (thus proving without a doubt that he totally understands who I am) and I still prefer it to the Special Edition. I don't know what we'll do if our laserdisc player ever dies, though.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-07 12:54 am (UTC)ESB is my very favorite of the SW; I totally knew all the dialogue by heart...
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-07 03:33 am (UTC)Word word word on everything, but especially the Leia/Han love. I hope you watched Farscape, 'cause the Crichton/Aeryn love story had many of these same qualities (and then some).
You know, for a second after Buffy said "I love you" to Spike in the finale, I thought for sure Whedon had seen the error of his own own lame lines and instead was about to rip off L/H's classic exchange. If he had, it would have been a much more satisfying ending for S/B, instead of the forced ambiguity we got from Spike (I am absolutely sure that Buffy meant what she said the instant she said it, and at no other time before or afterwards). Why couldn't JW have been derivative when it would have been a good thing? God knows he'd never been embarrassed about "borrowing" from other sources before.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-07 05:23 am (UTC)Empire is the good movie because it's the one where Luke makes a decision. He's swept along, barely comprehending, in the first film, and a cipher in the third. But in number two he chooses to go after his friends. Dark side, shmark side. You don't abandon people like that.
Buffy knows that, at least.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-08 12:11 am (UTC)Exactly. I get what Joss meant, but I think it's exceptionally stupid, especially for a heroine whose struggle revolved around how emotionally disconnected she is. How is it progress for her to choose to disconnect herself even more? Or for her to come up with yet another excuse for why she can't open up to people? It might've worked for a character who had constantly obsessed over relationships and changed herself for others, but Buffy's problem was the opposite, an inability to connect. (She never told Riley she loved him, she beat Spike to the ground rather than admit feelings for him, etc.)
Do you have the laserdisc set too? My husband got me the Definitive Collector's Edition for Valentine's Day the year it came out
Oh, you are so lucky. I don't; I just have the regular versions ... the original VHS tapes. The colors are kind of dull, and I really wish it was in widescreen, because the pan and scan isn't great either. But at least it doesn't have any "special" nonsense inserted in, and it's got that awesome "Gone with the Wind" pose cover.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-08 05:23 am (UTC)I don't think Mutant Enemy can write a story like that. It's not in Joss "Love is Pain" Whedon. There are just too many neuroses (penises are evil, fathers are EEEEVIL, mothers are ineffective, heroic women take on the old fashioned male "virtues", yadda, yadda, fishcakes.)
Either that or Joss is just addicted to the old Darkfic concept of "If it's dark, disappointing, and awful it MUST be top drawer drama." Whatever. Personally, I find nothing particularly great about pain. If there is growth, development and character evolution through the pain then great. But so often I think ME goes for the hurt because Joss things causing the audience to scream means he's doing something right when in fact they may be screaming because he really is WRONG.
Anyway, Joss' "I love you" / "No you don't" was lame. Lame, lame, lame, lame.
Lame no because Spike said "No, you don't." By the time the finale rolled around I had embraced that notion because regardless of whether Buffy truly BELIEVES what she says, given her behavior, whatever it was doesn't fit my definition of love.
It was lame because there was no emotional catharsis in it. No closure. It was just a cookie crumb thrown at Angel. A cookie crumb thrown at Spike and oopsie! Over... and she's no further along on her emotional journey than "I Was Made to Love You" where she lamented that she couldn't make a relationship work because of her remarkable self absorbtion.
Yes, Buffy. You're right about that one. Wish you could have actally LEARNED something in the last few years rather than have an epiphany and then forget it, have an epiphany then forget it, rinse and repeat ad nauseum. So she's cookie dough... and how does this epiphany differ from any other epiphany that didn't stick?
In the end Buffy was in the same emotional vacuum at the end of the season as she'd been running around in since she came back from heeeaaaaven. She still didn't know SiTs names. She still couldn't manage more than an equivalent of the helicopter run she gave Riley only it was a tearful--too late to even be believable "I love you" to a man who is going to die in a few seconds. She still hadn't reconnected to her friends in any meaningful way. She's not heading to LA to actually WORK on a relationship but instead waits for that mythical someday when everything will suddenly be okay and perfect as if real relationships don't take proximity, knowlege of one another, and some effort expended in trying to make a relationship.
Buffy ends up nowhere and not very different from the girl an episode or three earlier who was an emotional wasteland... only now she has a nifty ax, reduced sense of responsibility, and a bunch of other people to do what she has hated for the last few years.
She didn't go anywhere.
Poor Anya was dead.
Xander hardly acknowledged his dead fiance before joking about the mall.
Giles is still a pod person.
Spike died without anyone giving a damn or even acknowledging that he saved their ungrateful butts.
So...tell me again, where was I supposed to see this outstandig ending?
Sorry. It's late and I'm back to being snarky again. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-08 02:25 pm (UTC)