(no subject)

[rusty_halo]

I think I'm the only (redemptionist) Spike fan who's happy about 5.8. Hmm. Honestly, I'm getting kind of disgusted by the way that people are utterly freaking out and drawing ridiculous conclusions based on a couple of script snippets. No, ME doesn't hate you. No, ME doesn't hate Spike. No, they're not doing this just to hurt you/hurt Spike/destroy Spuffy/glorify Angel/etc. Calm the fuck down and stop over-reacting to something that you haven't even seen and don't know the context of.

And, once you stop screaming that the sky is falling, maybe you can appreciate the good:

1. Spike's corporeal! Or, he's able to effect the physical world. He can touch and be touched. Yay! I thought people didn't want Spike to remain incorporeal forever; why aren't they celebrating this?

2. Angelus/William flashback!!!!!! Do I even have to say more?

Now, as far as Spike hitting Harmony. Yeah, he hits her and knocks her out--after she goes rabid and tries to kill him! It's a completely justifiable act of self-defense. Given that we've just seen another guy beat someone to death for not refilling the toner in the printer, I think we can safely assume that Spike was doing what was necessary to protect himself and anyone else that Harmony might come into contact with. It's not an attempt to portray Spike as a misogynist--he gets no pleasure from it, he's not mean about it, and his main emotion is confusion.

Now, as far as Spike maybe having sex with Harmony: it's fairly clear that they don't actually have sex, since she goes rabid at some point in the process. Do they intend to have sex? Probably. Are they under a spell? We don't know. Why are they going to have sex? We don't know. Why freak out over this when we have no clue of the context?

Now, apparently to some Spike fans, the worst possible case scenario would be that Spike voluntarily chooses to have sex with Harmony. (Somehow, this means that he's betraying Buffy/written out of character/the writers are trying to prove that he's less than Angel). Um ... huh?

1. He's not out of character. Spike used Harmony for sex when he couldn't get Buffy in season five, and he went to Anya for comfort sex in season six.

2. It doesn't make him worse than Angel. Angel fucked Darla in an attempt to lose his soul and turn back into Angelus. I'm fairly certain that Spike doesn't expect sex with Harmony to turn him into a mass murderer.

3. It's not a betrayal of Buffy. Buffy's not around; she didn't exactly come running when Spike returned. She told him *repeatedly* in season six to move on, and she never made any commitment to him one way or the other in season seven. (And she was ready to jump Principal Wood's bones while she still had Spike at home on his leash, and she kissed Angel at the first opportunity). Spike owes Buffy absolutely *nothing*.

I don't know if he's really starting to move on with Harmony (could be a spell or a mislead or comfort sex or whatever), but if he is? Good for him. It's about time.

Comments

[miggy.livejournal.com]

I'm thrilled as well. Everything I've been hearing about everything coming up sounds really, really good. I'm nothing but excited about what's coming up, and think the AtS crew seems to have a good set of heads on their shoulders.

I'm nowhere near willing to say "Best! Season! Ever!" thanks to remembering how the first third of S6 was really fantastic, but hey, I'll appreciate this goodness for as long as it goes on.

[miggy.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I'm realizing that maybe you and I are in such good moods because we get to watch Spike without having to put up with seeing Buffy's face onscreen and recoiling in instinctual disgust. Think that might have something to do with it? ;)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I'm remaining cautious--I remember how good season six was up until Smashed. Even season seven started off with some decent episodes ... it wasn't until Bring on the Night that it got really bad. So, yes, I'm being cautiously optimistic--AtS will have a different type of seasonal arc, and there's no Marti Noxon to pop in mid-season and ruin everything, and it's only in it's fifth season--BtVS had a wonderful fifth season. So *crossing fingers*.

And yes, I can't even put into words how utterly delightful it is to see Spike without having to endure Buffy. (Please, please don't let SMG show up again.) Actually, the only thing that I didn't like in the sides was Harmony saying that Spike's still in love with Buffy. Maybe it's just Harmony being insane and paranoid, but I don't want that bitch's name mentioned in connection with Spike anymore. She's finally gone; stop bringing her up and let him move on!

[hazel75.livejournal.com]

Laura, my problem is not that he's moving on, having sex, betraying any memory. My problem is Harmony. She's the dumbest, most shallow person on the show -- not who I want Spike going after even if it is just for sex. Sparmony is my nightmare 'ship as I find it impossible to believe that souled Spike (hell, even S6 Spike) would be interested in Harmony. But I could very well be wrong.

And, until I find out differently, I'm going to figure that Spike's corporealness is some kind of gimmick -- not lasting. Because it would seem to me that Spike becoming corporeal would be a big deal. Of course, I thought getting the soul was a big deal.

Anyway, not trying to harsh on your mellow, I'm just very disappointed in the Ep 8 sides. I feel like ME just gives with one hand to take away with another.

[callherblondie.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything you said hazel75 and that is why I'm upset. I want Spike to move on from Buffy too and was even excited that perhaps they might do a Spike/Fred friendship or romantic storyline. I just don't want to see Spike with Harmony. It was pretty much my worst fear.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

We don't know that they're pairing Spike with Harmony. We don't know what the context is for the two of them to get together. We don't know why or if they're under a spell or anything.

And even if, say, Spike just got corporeal and wants to celebrate with Harmony, it doesn't mean that ME is pairing the two. Spike and Anya actually did have comfort sex in season six and I certainly woudln't say that there was much focus on that pairing. They had like 10 minutes in one episode, total.

What if the Spike/Harmony scene is a way to, say, trigger Spike to deal with his past relationship with Harmony and to apologize? Or to have Spike realize that he's ready to move on from Buffy? Or to have Spike realize that he's not ready to move on from Buffy? Or to show that he's finally over his post-Seeing Red celibacy? Or to have Spike realize that it was wrong for Buffy to use him the way that he used Harmony? Or to show some growth in him that we're not even aware of at this point? It's written to show something; it's not just there to mock us with, "haha, we're relegating Spike to a comic relief supporting character!" It's going to tie into the theme of the episode in a way that we currently have no way of knowing.

I highly doubt that the two of them are going to be in any kind of long-term relationship; we have no evidence for it whatsoever based on this little script snippet. We don't even know what happens between Spike and Harmony entering the room and Harmony biting Spike--do they converse? Does Spike realize something about himself? We don't know.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

As I replied to redrover1980: we have no way of knowing how and why Spike and Harmony are getting together. We certainly have no indication that ME is pairing them for any kind of long-term 'ship, any more than they were planning to pair Spike/Anya in Entropy (when everyone was freaking out, and then it turned out to be one of the saddest, most touching scenes of the season).

I see no evidence whatsoever that Spike is, ever has been, or ever will be interesting in Harmony intellectually. He just thinks she's hot, which, well, she is. Given that he's been celibate since Seeing Red, I'm quite glad that he's finally getting over that and allowing himself to be sexual again. Good for him.

Because it would seem to me that Spike becoming corporeal would be a big deal.

Dude--we have a tiny bit of script snippet. We don't know how or why he's corporeal. We don't know how big of a deal the show is treating it. Given that they're also including Angelus/William flashbacks, it seems quite like that this is a fairly Spike-centric episode. We don't know what happens in the 90% of the episode that we don't have sides for--for all we know, it could be all about Spike's corporeality.

[buffyx.livejournal.com]

Okay, you made a lot of really, really good points in your post, which have helped me put a lot of what we're hearing in perspective. It still bothers me, however, and not at all because Spike is being sexual-- because hey, the faster he moves on from Buffy, the better.

And I agree, I don't believe they're planning on a Spike/Harmony relationship, and I think the people freaking out about Spike being accused of domestic violence for slugging Harmony as she's attacking him need to sit down and take a deep breath.

My problems lies in that it feels (only IMO, of course) like it's the writers throwing them together, because they're thinking, "Hey, we need to take Spike's shirt off so that all of the Spike fans will watch! They're only drooling fangirls anyway, so I bet this'll work!" They did it a ton in season seven too, and I just don't find it cute or funny. Give me Spike being sexual, fine, but give me a reason, give me a real story, not just a pointless fuck with the dumb blonde.

I really hope I'm overreacting, and I really hope that more is revealed soon that'll qualm my issues with this episode. Like you said, we don't have the entire script, so I realize it could change my perspective.

[miggy.livejournal.com]

And I agree, I don't believe they're planning on a Spike/Harmony relationship, and I think the people freaking out about Spike being accused of domestic violence for slugging Harmony as she's attacking him need to sit down and take a deep breath.

There are some people who will always think it's wrong for a man to hit a woman, even if the woman is a homicidal maniac, waving around a gun, whatever. I've seen it in every fandom I've ever participated in. I'm not holding my breath for people to realize that hey, violence just might be the answer to stopping an immediate threat whether said threat is underwire-free or not.

[pepperlandgirl4.livejournal.com]

OH my god, I need ot have gay sex with you right now. Or hump your leg. Or send you flowers. Or something. Jesus, this is one of the most wonderfully, beautifully sane things I have read since yesterday. I heart you, I really, truly do. I couldn't have said it better. I wouldn't try.

[http://users.livejournal.com/automatedalice_/]

& i shall join you in the leg humpery.

at my hard, black heart of hearts, i'm still a spuffy shipper. always will be. what i don't ship is the way that the ship has been treated by ME, because i feel like the redemption arc could have been better accomplished without being so damned nasty.

& while i am very pleased to see hints of spike being corporeal, hints of him being touched, hints of him moving on, part of me still wants to see him go to buffy & tell her exactly how it's gonna be...& they're going to ride off into the sunset together. [/sap]

anyway, yes, i commend your sanity & it's really heartening & good-place-putting to read something that's not dripping with gut-wrenching reactionariness. thank you. ::touches robes of justice::

[octopedingenue]

I'm utterly mystified by people's negative reactions. This looks to be a possibly kickass Spike episode. It has Spike! And he's not evil! And there are cool period-clothing flashbacks revealing tidbits of Spike's past! And he's directly involved in the plot and action of the episode, possibly even Heroically Saving The Day! And he's not Casper! And he's doing Very Human Things like macking on a pretty girl (who is NOT just some random meaningless skanky pretty girl; she's his ex-girlfriend, and as much as she annoyed him at times, he had a weird but real amused-by-her bond with her and neither of them ever complained about the sex) AND helping people! And none of the Scoobies Angel Investigations team Wolfram & Hart peeps are sitting around saying, "GOD, that Spike is SUCH an evil soulless thing, we hate him and he SUCKS!" And he's wearing the coat!

...where is the bad here? Hello? Where? *picks up a rock and looks underneath*s

[claudia-yvr.livejournal.com]

WORD to you and to drinkthepoisonx. Also? Your icon is a freakin' riot!

[irfikos.livejournal.com]

hee. i love spike to... er... death. but i accept the fact that he often does stupid things (e.g., harmony, buffy, probably angelus). {cough}okaysorryaboutthateveryonelightenup{cough}

seriously laura... you make total sense. i've seen very little of the actual spoilers but a whole lot of the indignant screeching. all i can say to you and your darned common sense is "preach on sistah."

i do hope that whatever the hell is going on, it does allow spike to "open up" to harmony and hopefully make some peace w/her. i always figured buffy treating him like shit was turnabout for his horrible treatment of harmony. in both situations, someone used someone else to help them deal with their own personal issues. and the whipping boy in each case let the other person treat them like that. i would hope that spike learned his lesson on what it's like to be treated like dirt in a relationship and eventually own up to harmony.

but i also accept that what i want out of a t.v. show and what i get are often very different. and i certainly don't plan on throwing any tantrums if i don't get my way. y'know?

[shapinglight]

I admit to having had a negative reaction to parts of these 'sides for the same reason as buffyx above. I certainly don't know, no more than anyone else does, that ME plan to put Spike in a relationship with Harmony, but on the other hand it's true that JM did say to Kristin that the writers were planning a new 'romance' for Spike but he didn't know who it was. I became pretty certain after reading that that it would be Harmony, and felt that view was reinforced today by something posted by one of the BAPS mods. She was speculating that as far as a 'romantic' partner for Spike goes there's really very little choice. Fred, it seems, is doomed to be in a triangle with Wes and Knox, Eve (for better or worse) is supposed to be Angel's 'love' interest, and they are unlikely, given budget constraints, to bring in a new character as a love interest for Spike (and that never works anyway, remembering Riley and Kennedy). That leaves Harmony, played by an actress with whom JM has proven chemistry. They probably think they'd be mad to ignore it. So I think they're going to do it.

And I do resent it for Spike's sake. I want him to move on from Buffy same as everyone else, but this looks like moving back to me, if it does become permanent. Harmony can never be anything but a kind of joke, pretty though MM is. In fact, to make her anything else would really remove the whole point of the character. So, no, I don't object to Spike having meaningless sex with Harmony as long as it's only once, but even then it'll probably turn into a kind of comedy millstone around his neck as she chases him wanting to talk about their 'relationship', which will be funny for a while but could get old really fast and has the potential to make him look like either an idiot or a real bastard, if he's mean to her again. So, no, I don't like it although have got to the stage of feeling that freaking is pointless. They're going to do it whatever I want. And I am very pleased about the flashback and the being corporeal. I just hope it lasts.

FWIW I'm also disappointed in this scenario - should it come about - for Harmony's sake, simply because Spike was so very mean to her. She obviously has big self-esteem problems if she thinks getting back with him is a good idea. And although not bothered by Spike punching her in this scene (she's crazy and trying to kill him)I have to say that since the AR I now find it very hard to look at scenes of Spike hitting women, even very old scenes, without finding it a little upsetting. I just don't like it.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

I've only just got back and haven't caught up with my mail/decompressed my brain off Foundation Hospitals/Iraq yet, but my first reaction was the same as yours. Corporeal - Yay. Allowed to have his dick back - Yay. Could have done without it being with Harm, but if he was to be hitting a sex partner with mystical rabies better Harm than knocking Fred's human and so much more breakable head off her shoulders.
Will have more to say when my brain's fully functioning from the politics/boozing overload of the last few days.

[mogens.livejournal.com]

I think I'm the only (redemptionist) Spike fan who's happy about 5.8

Don't forget about me. I'm completely and totally excited, and I said this in my journal entry yesterday. :)

[chase820.livejournal.com]

Totally on the same page as you, Laura. In fact, I intend to rant about this in my own journal, so I won't go into tons of detail here, but I think people are getting hysterical over nothing. We have a small script snippet, taken completely out of context.

But even if a newly corporeal Spike is using Harmony to get laid, what's the big deal? Why does his not behaving like a monk until his next One True Love come along mean he's backsliding to Season Four status? Can't a vamp take a flyer with a cute blonde once in awhile without being proclaimed eeeeeevil?

Sheesh. We've already got one monastic brooding souled vamp. Isn't that enough?

[sparkledark.livejournal.com]

I'm totally excited, too. Flashbacks! Yay! And, unlike um, everyone in the world it seems, I'm not against a Spike/Harm shag-fest. Or even a relationship, if it ever came to that. There have been so many superficial, one-note characters who came over to Angel and were given miraculous depth- I don't really see why Harmony can't become more interesting, and have a potentially interesting thing with Spike. At least Harmony seemed to actually like Spike when they were together...But anyway, the spoilers are totally non-revealing and I don't understand why people are wigging over them.

[wickedprincess3.livejournal.com]

Thank You! Exactly.
I'm tired of Hero!Wuss!Spilliam!Spike. Hell he can be a "good" guy and not make me want to claw my eyes out.
Also? Harmony may be shallow and dumb but that doesn't make her the wicked witch that stole the pure Spuffy love.
I honestly see no bad in these spoilers, he's acting like Spike again. Thank God.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Totally. On Buffy, they had this stupid repressive anti-sex anti-male mentality where for Spike to be "good" he had to completely deny his sexual desires and be utterly subservient to Buffy. (See, for example, his saintly rejections of Anya in BtVS season seven).

On Angel, which allows for a much more complex moral view and isn't obsessed with glorifying female power to the detriment of everything else, male sexuality doesn't automatically equal BAD. As you said: thank god Spike is finally allowed to act like Spike again.

[amerella.livejournal.com]

You are my hero. Spike is not, and I like it that way.

I am sleepy. Therefore, that is all. Continue to kick ass. ^_^