I want Bryan Singer back

[rusty_halo]

Haven't seen X-Men 3 yet?

Here's what to do:

Put X2 in your DVD player. Turn out the lights and turn the volume up.

Appreciate the depth of the story. Revel in the nuance, the complexity, the layers. Enjoy the fact that even the "villains" are treated as three-dimensional characters, that the metaphor is explored in a variety of intriguing ways, that the various storylines are so perfectly woven together. Realize how carefully the events are foreshadowed, and how genuine the emotion is, how honestly you believe the relationships between the characters.

Preserve your memories of the first two films... and save your money for Superman Returns.

--one pissed off former X-Men movie fan

(On the other hand, if you want to see inane action movie cliches, characters acting like they're possessed by really boring puppets, stuff blowing up, pointless comic book shoutouts, and not a single drop of complexity or genuine emotion ... yeah, go see X-Men 3.)

Comments

[chase820.livejournal.com]

Oh my. I'd heard it wasn't good, but I'd no idea it was this bad.

Brett Ratner sinks yet another franchise. *Sigh*

Oh well, we'll always have X1 abd X2

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I had to watch X2 last night to clean out my brain. Bleargh.

Damn you, Brett Ratner!

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Oh, and it wouldn't have been so bad if it was just "Generic Comic Book Movie #348." It's the fact that the previous two were so good that made this one such a travesty.

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

Will you wipe me from your memory if I tell you that I liked it a lot better than X-2?

I just came out of the movie theatre and I really enjoyed part 3. :-)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Hee, no, I promise not to wipe you from my memory. I wish I could transfer all my X-Men 3 memories to you, though! ;)

[toysdream.livejournal.com]

Wow, I guess this really must be one of those love-it-or-hate-it kinda things, because I adored it. It's possible that it might work better as an exploration of issues from the comics than as a followup to the previous movies, but perhaps I've just destroyed any confidence you might have held in my good taste. :-)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Taste is subjective, I know. I'm judging people who liked the movie... just judging the movie itself.

I did get the sense that it made a lot more sense to people who are familiar with the comics. I've only seen the movies, and to me, it did NOT in any way work as a sequel to the previous two. Meanwhile my friend jaydk was squeeing over all the comic references.

One of many examples: the previous two films built up Rogue as a major character, and I was just boggled that she was almost entirely dropped (and turned into a gigantic pussy) in favor of some other character named Kitty Pride(?) who came out of NOWHERE (to a movie fan). But jaydk was all "OMG, I love Kitty, she is so awesome in the comics."

My argument was that, seeing as this is a movie and not a comic, it should've been a continuation of the previous two films, not a barely strung together collection of comic book references. But I'm sure the comic fan had a totally different experience.

Still... what about having Wolverine give that clumsy "rah rah" speech? Or Halle Berry's continuing inability to act? Or the fact that no one really even cared when Scott died? (I mean, I hated Scott, and I still thought that was completely lame, especially after the huge deal everyone went through after Jean died in the previous film.) Or what about the inane teen-melodrama of Bobby using Xavier's funeral as an excuse to mack on Kitty (and cheat on Rogue with no apparent guilt)? Or the cliche of the bad guys all looking like teenage goth kids (I swear to god, we're NOT ALL EVIL, and the previous two films never would've sunk to that cheap, close-minded cliche). And why would Magneto need to move the bridge anyway? And why was the president suddenly all happy about mutants--was there no public outcry about the mutants killing bunches of soldiers and destroying the golden gate bridge? And who was that guy with wings and why was he even THERE? And what was the point of Dark Phoenix if she was just going to stand around glaring most of the time? Just... GAH. I HATED IT.

The previous two films really had an ideological underpinning and a strength to their perspective. This one was just an excuse to blow stuff up.

Sorry. Um. What did you like?

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

My argument was that, seeing as this is a movie and not a comic, it should've been a continuation of the previous two films, not a barely strung together collection of comic book references. But I'm sure the comic fan had a totally different experience.

Wow. Yeah, I gotta say - reading through your list of questions, they're all excellent points, and pretty much all of them can only be explained as comic storyline shout-outs (such as the reason why all of Magneto's supporters looked like goths - they were meant to be a particular gang of mutants called the Morlocks who always dressed like that, because in the mid-'80s it seemed highly cutting-edge). So... yeah, as a followup film to X2, this is something totally else.

I suppose like they could've made more of an issue out of how much time has passed since Jean died, if they wanted to sell all this new material to an audience that wasn't familar with the comic franchise. But I'm not sure even that would've worked - I think I could count 10 or more comic storylines they blenderized to get this movie, which is pretty unwieldly all told, and that still doesn't explain why Rogue was suddenly a bit player. As a strict continuity to the film franchise... yeah. I see your point.

[10zlaine.livejournal.com]

ugh. See, that really, really sucks, becaue if you don't read comics, then, WTF*infinity?

And, really, I'd have to argue that there are a lot more general action movie watchers of the X-men franchise who DON'T read comics than there are comic fans who would get the several *winks*.

I'm picking up a vehicle, and headed home now, and hopefully you'll be there and awake!!!

[toysdream.livejournal.com]

I'm starting to think the movies-versus-comics perspective might be a big factor here. It's not so much that the movie is at all faithful to the comics and their continuity - unlike the previous two, it draws heavily on the past couple dozen years' worth of comics plotlines, but then it puts them all in a blender and transforms them into a kind of wacko remix, so I imagine that diehard comics buffs would find a lot to complain about as well.

But one very major plot point - the idea that Xavier had originally "fixed" Jean to limit her powers and keep her under control - is taken directly from the comics, which have never treated it with anything like the moral seriousness it deserves. In this movie, though, the juxtaposition of Xavier's "fixing" of Jean with Angel's gruesome attempt to "fix" his wings makes it clear that Xavier is making a really dubious ethical call, and I think it's strongly implied that this played a significant role in his parting of ways with Magneto. The comics are filled with cases of Xavier meddling with people's minds for what he claims is their own good, and he's never ever been called to account for it, so I was delighted to see it taking center stage here.

Unfortunately, turning Jean into the object of a philosophical tug-of-war between Xavier and Magneto pretty much reduces her to a pawn, which is a real step backwards from the strong, determined, self-motivated hero we saw in the previous movies. The Xavier/Magneto rivalry itself seems like a plausible extension of the previous movies, and I thought they brought it to a satisfying conclusion here, but they did it by more or less erasing Jean as a character. Even the good, heroic Jean we knew from the previous movies now seems retroactively like a fraud, a perfect little surrogate daughter molded in Xavier's image. Although the story itself at least acknowledges how creepy that is - especially with Jean's suggestion that he's done the same thing to the now suspiciously domesticated Wolverine - that doesn't really make it all better.

Oh, and speaking of ill-served characters... :-)

I thought what they did with Rogue made sense from a character standpoint, but I agree it's kind of an anticlimax for someone who'd been such a major character up to that point. I was amused that Kitty, the Little Miss Perfect beloved of all comics fanboys, appears here as a pouty homewrecker, but I guess it didn't occur to me that they were replacing one with the other because in the comics they're both important and popular characters.

Scott's off-camera death, I suspect, was left unconfirmed until midway through the movie partly to stop the plot from dragging to a halt for yet another maudlin funeral sequence. They can't really be expected to mourn him until they know he's dead, but I appreciated Wolverine's pre- and post-mortem concern for his longtime rival.

Still, I can't disagree with your list of criticisms. Halle Berry still can't act, Bobby's a creep, Callisto and friends being Evil Goths was just as cliched as it was in the comics, and the movieverse president seems to be all over the map when it comes to his mutant-related policymaking. I guess it's just that, for me, the silly bits pale by comparison to the skillful use of elements from the comics - which I thought improved on the original versions pretty much across the board - and what I felt was a satisfying and, gosh, even intelligent resolution to Xavier's and Magneto's long-running debate over the responsible use of power. I could ramble on about that last point in more detail, but I've already been going on for ages as it is. :-)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

In this movie, though, the juxtaposition of Xavier's "fixing" of Jean with Angel's gruesome attempt to "fix" his wings makes it clear that Xavier is making a really dubious ethical call, and I think it's strongly implied that this played a significant role in his parting of ways with Magneto. The comics are filled with cases of Xavier meddling with people's minds for what he claims is their own good, and he's never ever been called to account for it, so I was delighted to see it taking center stage here.

I wish I'd seen what you describe here, because it would've been cool. But I honestly didn't feel like they were trying to point out any kind of ambiguity in Xavier's actions; if anything the characters were more black (Magneto) and white (Xavier) than ever here. Of course, I saw lots of darkness in what Xavier did (it was horrible, and I was pretty much rooting for Jean to kill him), but I don't think the film really treated it as dark. Xavier was basically proved right when Jean went nuts and Wolverine had to kill her.

Unfortunately, turning Jean into the object of a philosophical tug-of-war between Xavier and Magneto pretty much reduces her to a pawn, which is a real step backwards from the strong, determined, self-motivated hero we saw in the previous movies.

Yes, and that really pissed me off after the buildup of Jean as an actual strong character in X2. I liked that, even though she was the object of a love triangle, she asserted herself and was clearly in control (she chose Scott--it was ultimately her making an active choice), whereas here she was just totally a pawn to be used by the men around her. Even when Wolverine killed her, you felt sorrier for him for having to kill the woman he loved, than for Jean (who wasn't really even an individual anymore at that point). Not to mention the sexism in the idea of a woman who can't control her power/ the idea that it was right for Xavier to cut her off from it instead of helping her deal with it and use it for good. UGH, and the fact that evil Jean automatically equalled sexual Jean. Oh, and why didn't Storm even seem to care of feel bad about killing Jean? It was all "Wolverine, you have to kill her," when really if you look at the previous film, it was Storm who'd known her longer and had more of a relationship with her--didn't Storm even feel sad about the death of her friend?

And don't even get me started on Rogue giving up her powers. That was so one-sidedly stupid. Either they should've shown it as the tragedy it was (Bobby should've dumped her immediately, that's for sure) or they should've had her come in at a pivotal moment and use her powers to save someone, thus showing that even though her difference has major social drawbacks, it's also a power that she can use for good. But they just went for making her utterly pathetic.

Or (to get off the sexism rant), what about Iceman and Pyro? They were friends in the previous film. Their showdown should've had some layers, depth, sadness, or at least the passion of friendship turned to hatred. But it wasn't even a very interesting fight! Just an excuse to show Bobby covered in ice so the comic fans could squee.

I don't know... I'm glad you liked it, but I really didn't see most of the stuff you're saying. I don't think they explored Magneto and Xavier's differences in any great depth. The one thing I did like was that Magneto clearly didn't want Xavier to die and was sorry when it happened, but aside from that... meh.

[toysdream.livejournal.com]

(Reposting this to fix a ghastly formatting error... stupid non-editable comments!)

I guess it's often hard to tell whether a story's deliberately trying to be complex and ambiguous, or if one is simply trying too hard to rationalize a shoddy story. I suspect this often comes down to the degree of trust one has in the creators. In this case, since Brett Ratner has yet to distinguish himself as a director and the scriptwriters are relative newbies, I don't think we need to go out of our way to look for deeper levels of meaning.

Still, I think there's some basis for thinking that the creators are deliberately calling Xavier's actions into question. Wolverine seems to take a pretty dim view of Xavier's judgement - I recall some grumbling from him about how animals don't take kindly to being caged - and I think the audience is expected to take his side over Xavier's. The fact that Jean eventually goes into full psychic meltdown seems to vindicate Xavier's dire warnings, but if Wolverine is to be believed, repressing this side of her personality has only made it that much worse.

The problem, of course, is that this "dark side" comes completely out of nowhere. Hookles and I just sat down and rewatched the first two movies, and while the first one has its share of weird hints and strange behavior on Jean's part, her depiction in the second one is so spirited and confident and unabashedly heroic that the notion of a repressed evil persona seems kind of bonkers.

Be that as it may, I didn't feel that the filmmakers were putting Xavier in a terribly saintly light. Even his post-credits resurrection shows him blithely stepping over something that Xavier himself had earlier identified as a pretty questionable ethical line. And meanwhile, I thought Magneto came off rather well in some respects; his insistence that Jean doesn't need to be "fixed" or controlled echoes the sentiments of all right-thinking mutants regarding the prospect of being "cured," and his agenda here is very much one of mutant self-defense rather than a crackpot scheme to mutant-ize world leaders or explode the heads of the entire Homo Sapien population. Of course, his ruthless methods tend to undercut his noble goals, but that seems consistent with the previous movies.

Once again, I've blathered on and on about Jean and Xavier and Magneto, but when it comes to Rogue and Iceman and Pyro I think I'll just agree with you. I was really hoping that Rogue would end her reunion with Bobby with a firm "goodbye," confirming that she took the cure for her own sake rather than his, but instead I'll just have to settle for my shippy conviction that studly Colossus will catch her on the rebound. :-)

[irfikos.livejournal.com]

oh, man, i just read this and it's basically my own thoughts on the movie.

seriously? go read "astonishing x-men." it's way better than this movie was. um... but only if you want to. which... you probably don't. so yeah... never mind. ;-)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I'm judging people who liked the movie

Erm, NOT judging. Sorry. Typing too fast.

[jerrymcl89.livejournal.com]

I was planning to go see this today, but I got caught up in finishing my re-reading of Neil Gaiman's Sandman instead. It sounds like I possibly made a good choice. Maybe I'll see it later in the week.

[wickedprincess3.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. I am reminded of the episode of South Park where the kids tried to kid their cash back from Mel Gibson after seeing the Passion. Except I kind of want to face punch Ratner and then give more money to Singer. Insert oblig Superman Returns squee here.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I liked your post about it... you totally got why the sexist elements were so offensive. (And it just sucks particularly because the previous films dealt with them so well. *sigh*)

Yeah, I'm not even a Superman fan, but after seeing Bryan Singer talk about it at Comic Con, I'm definitely looking forward to it.

[irfikos.livejournal.com]

I'm not a huge Superman fan but I'm looking forward to the new movie. I just saw X3 & posted my own review. I'm not so much angry as I am disappointed.

Oh, and... um... regarding your previous (locked) post, who is the new singer? I've heard various contradictory reports. Some were frightening. ::is wary::

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Well, they've got one main singer, plus various guest singers depending where they are. There was no guest singers at the show I was at, but I heard Mark Lanegan was at one of the shows (that I'd kill to have seen). I did see VH1's special on Heart, where they played one song with Phil Anselmo from Pantera, and dedicated the show to "Layne Staley and Dimebag."

The main guy is named William DuVall, from a band called Comes with the Fall. I'd never heard of him before, but like I said, I didn't hate him. He had a vocal range similar to Layne's, and sang all the songs correctly. Of course, he had nothing like the passion/charisma/darkness/beauty of Layne, but he did have an enthusiastic stage presence and good interaction with Jerry.

I mean, obviously he was in no way equal to Layne, but given the circumstances, it could've been a lot worse. (Perhaps my opinion was aided by having seen Phil Anselmo first--I was much relieved to find out he was only a guest singer and that the actual guy was way better.)

[irfikos.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Anselmo was who I had heard bandied about the most. And I do like Pantera when I'm in the proper mood (I've found that post-breakup/anger stage is particularly proper). But I just don't see his as being... right for that band.

Mark Lanegan? Would have been AMAZING! Not imitating Layne or anything, but certainly fitting that band well. A different sound, but well-suited, I'd say.

Now I'm wondering if this DuVall guy is the guy I saw playing with Jerry at the show I went to a few years ago. In fact, I think maybe Comes with the Fall was the opening act. They opened for Jerry and then this guy came out and played with Jerry for his set. He looks really familiar. And as I recall, he was really great singing the Layne parts for the Alice in Chains songs Jerry did. So I am well-pleased that he got the gig as the sorta-semi-permanent AIC guy. Go, him!

Still... I would have loved to have seen Maynard from Tool performing with them. I can see that working reeeeeaaally well.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've liked some Pantera, but he was just so wrong for AIC.

Mark Lanegan is just wonderful. It would've been particularly moving to hear him sing with AIC because he sings one of my all time favorite songs, WITH Layne, Mad Season's "Long Gone Day."

[10zlaine.livejournal.com]

Yes, well, I finally just got around to seeing this (yes, I should be working on papers...) and wanted to go back and read your comments. So, sorry to bring back awful memories....

Fucking hell, this sucked. I can't believe comic book fans would be so blinded to the suckiness of this *just* because they got some shout outs! Jesus. All the awesome mutants were put down! What a bunch of bullshit (except Bobby, but wtf with him just dying, and then...nothing...). WTF with Rogue? Wouldn't it have been more compelling to keep Xavier alive and work through the issues of changing Jean--and Jean, btw....fuck. All I kept seeing was Evil!Willow.

I'm like, 'Why don't they just take the ferry to Alcatraz?' (not to mention the stereotypical cluster of Asian tourists trapped with their cameras) and 'WTF, why don't they just drag that anti-mutant kid up to Jean and stop that bullshit?' Fuck this, but Logan is *not* the Xander.

ugh. You were right, it was all just carboardy caricatures.