(no subject)

[rusty_halo]

I didn't read anything this weekend. I just couldn't bring myself to be interested in fic. Seeing as how I've been reading 2 or 3 stories a day for the past few months, I suppose it makes sense that I would start to get sick of it. Hopefully this is only temporary, as the archive is not going to fare very well otherwise.

Part of the problem is that the whole idea of Spike/Buffy just couldn't be more uninteresting to me. I want Spike to move on and 1) learn to love himself without basing so much on what other people think of him and 2) find a partner who can commit the same depth of love and devotion to him that he gives to the person he loves. I don't think that Buffy could ever be this person; her calling, her friends and family, and her self-absorbtion will always come first. She's never taken the time to get to know and appreciate Spike for who he is, his thoughts, feelings, desires, experiences, opinions, etc., and I just don't think she ever will. And Spike deserves better than that.

So whenever I read S/B fics now, I have such a hard time enjoying the pairing. There are a few authors who manage to interest me, because they address these points and they make Buffy seem more like a human being, but for the most part when a story puts S/B together, I'm just like "Why???" It's like people put them together because it's expected, because it's "the ship," but without putting any real reason or thought behind it (or putting the reason for it into the story).

The fact that Spike wants Buffy is not enough reason for me. One of my friends dated an abusive bastard who treated her like shit and wouldn't let her leave the house alone because he was so paranoid and controlling. My friend *wanted* to be with this guy, because he made her feel loved/needed/whatever, but just because she wanted him didn't make the relationship *right*. Spike wants Buffy because *Spike* is needy, and because he appreciates something in Buffy that really doesn't seem to be there except in Spike's mind. It would be so much healthier for him to get over this dependence and grow as a person than it would for him to be trapped once again in a relationship with a person who is so wrong for him.

(end rant)

I did get some real life stuff done this weekend, mainly cooking. The best thing I made was also the simplest: I put banana, strawberries, kiwi, and tangerine juice in the blender and made a very yummy fruit drink. I also made a fruit salad and a vegetable dish (sauteéd onions, garlic, and green peppers with tomatoes, zucchini, yellow squash, basil, cayenne pepper, and sea salt). All very simple but good.

I really miss cooking for other people (when I lived at home, my mom and brother would always share what I made). It's no fun just to cook for myself. So I asked my roommate if she wanted any and she did, and she was really happy, so that's good. It's definitely better to share.

Also I discovered that the garlic in my refrigerator was ... sprouting? these green stalks were coming out of the top. I didn't cook with it, obviously, but I'm wondering what I should do with it. If I stick it in water, will it grow? Or should I just throw it out?

I figured out why I've been so maudlin and depressed lately: PMS. It's good to know that I'm not going (permanently) insane. I'm going to eat lots of chocolate and hopefully feel better soon. And if I sent you some horribly whiny email, please just delete it and pretend you never read it. I apologize, and hope I haven't lost *everyone*'s respect.

I also realized that the existence of this livejournal is encouraging me to be more whiny and self-indulgent than I'd usually be. It's like it's calling me: "Look, I'm a journal! I exist for the sole purpose of venting and ranting about whatever you're feeling! That's what I'm for! Come on, you know you want to!" Except, of course, it's not a journal; a real journal is private. This is something that most of the people I know can see and read and discover all the least attractive aspects of me in. To be honest, I was just going to delete the journal altogether, except that jodyorjen was so cool and got me a paid account, so now I feel that I must use it. Also I do want to keep in touch with everyone and maybe get to know some people better. But I've resolved not to write personal stuff in here anymore, and if I began to get maudlin/whiny/ranty again, please remind me/tell me to shut up. Thanks. (And if you do actually want to talk about more personal stuff you can always email me privately).

Comments

[estepheia.livejournal.com]

Sweety, it's YOUR journal. You can whine all you like. I find that putting the whining in semi-public form puts a therapeutic distance between yourself and your mood. Meaning, posting is part of the 'getting over it' process.
Most people whine or rant - not always but regularly.

If people don't want to read your rants and whines they will just scroll past it. I do that all the time, depending on my mood. Sometimes I will read about people's personal problems, sometimes I read only LJ entries that are about writing or BtVS.

Anyway, I agree with your POV regarding Spike.
His complete focus on Buffy is actually an obstacle in writing an interesting and growning Spike. I'm trying to write a PWP in which he gets horizontal with Anya, but all my betas seem to find it impossible to even temporarily cut the Buffy/Spike ties in their heads and accept another het pairing. *sigh*
Ack, I'm digressing and talking about MY problems again. sorry ;-)

The show hasn't given off very friendshippy vibes this season - IMHO a great oversight on ME's part. So the characters haven't grown and seem to have no other reason to interact than the impending doom. That is not a framework that encourages character growth or fuzzy feelings.

BTW, thank you for your long email. I was a bit too busy and stressed to write a long reply. My aunty came to visit for a few days. That always involves frantic laundry folding and house cleaning. *sigh*

BTW, I updated my site, but hubby forgot to upload my files, so now only my old geocities site is up to date. You can find the Perdition chapter there. Grab it if you like. I'm glad you still enjoy it.
http://us.geocities.com/estepheia/

TPTP part 43 might get posted tuesday night.

I hate my site. I love yours! It looks so neat. I'd like to have mine look like a dark twin... black and oranges. I wish the hubby had the time to do the promised programming. It looks like it's not going to happen before the end of the show, which sucks.

Cheer up. *Smooches*

Este

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

>>Sweety, it's YOUR journal. You can whine all you like.<<

Heh, I know. And I could just make the entries private if I want and use it like a real journal. But it's also that I don't like the side of me that brings out. It doesn't help me work through my problems; just kind of encourages me to wallow in them. I'd rather just avoid that altogether.

>>I'm trying to write a PWP in which he gets horizontal with Anya, but all my betas seem to find it impossible to even temporarily cut the Buffy/Spike ties in their heads and accept another het pairing.<<

I can't wait to read that! (Spike and Anya make such an interesting pairing). Are you sure you have the right betas? (If they're S/B shippers they're probably not going to be keen on S/Anya no matter how well you write it).

I actually think now is the first time that we actually have a real possibility of Spike moving on from Buffy and starting to develop some self respect. He may have been jealous in "First Date," but at least we saw from that ep that he's intellectually prepared to move on. (Which is quite a development from his "love's bitch" persona in earlier seasons). And the spoilers suggest that this trend will continue.

>>Ack, I'm digressing and talking about MY problems again. sorry ;-)<<

LOL, like I don't do that *all* the time? Really, don't worry about it.

>>The show hasn't given off very friendshippy vibes this season - IMHO a great oversight on ME's part. So the characters haven't grown and seem to have no other reason to interact than the impending doom. That is not a framework that encourages character growth or fuzzy feelings.<<

You are SO right! I actually hadn't thought about this before, but you really hit on something that has been missing from the show this season. We've had so few friendship moments (especially friendship moments that actually felt *genuine*) this year. The only moment I can really think of is Buffy and Willow chatting over laundry in "First Date." I really miss that kind of interaction; it makes me care about the characters and their relationships so much more than the constant dreary arguing that they do the rest of the time. This is something that was done *so well* in the early seasons; it's really sad that it's mostly gone now.

>>BTW, thank you for your long email. I was a bit too busy and stressed to write a long reply. My aunty came to visit for a few days. That always involves frantic laundry folding and house cleaning. *sigh*<<

No problem. I really appreciate the fact that you took the time to write to me in the first place. I'm sorry you've been so stressed. :(

I'll update "Perdition" tomorrow while I'm at work (hehe, slacker Laura). It's a wonderful story. And I can't wait for the next part of TPTP; it's one of my favorite stories and you're really doing a wonderful job with each of the characters.

>>I hate my site. I love yours! It looks so neat. I'd like to have mine look like a dark twin... black and oranges.<<

Your site looks fine! It's nice and functional. I love the idea of a dark twin of my site, though! Cool idea. If you want any advice or help or if you have any questions about how I did it, feel free to ask.

Thank you for being so sweet. :)

[claudia-yvr.livejournal.com]

Anyway, I agree with your POV regarding Spike.
His complete focus on Buffy is actually an obstacle in writing an interesting and growning Spike. I'm trying to write a PWP in which he gets horizontal with Anya, but all my betas seem to find it impossible to even temporarily cut the Buffy/Spike ties in their heads and accept another het pairing. *sigh*

I'd be happy to beta that for you! My beta resume is all Spillow so far (Jodyorjen and Sinecure) but I'd love to take on your Spanya story. Just email me and I'll get to it!

[harmonyfb.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to write a PWP in which he gets horizontal with Anya, but all my betas seem to find it impossible to even temporarily cut the Buffy/Spike ties in their heads and accept another het pairing. *sigh*

Hey, that's cause of when you set it, Este. :P

Set it during S5, say, 'round "I Was Made to Love You", and I got no problem at all. :)

[onetwomany.livejournal.com]

(NB: Hope you don't mind me ranting on your LJ like this - been thinking about this issue for some time and this was the perfect opportunity to 'get it out' :) )

You know, on a rational, objective basis, I utterly, totally and completely agree with your take on B/S. It is annoying that Spike's story is all about Buffy. Especially considering that Buffy's self-absorption, her emotional rigidity, the fact she'll always hold some idealized version of her relationship with Angel as sacred and perfect, mean that she probably isn't the right woman for him anyway. In fact, in any other context, I would be urging Spike to run - to run far and fast, stopping only for co-dependency therapy (and a nice moment of "frankly my dear...").

The problem, however, is that there is no way for Spike to do that within the confines of the story being played out on our television sets. Just about everything in the Buffyverse revolves around Buffy, and that inevitably includes Spike. For good or ill, his entire storyline is now tied up with his intense, absorbing love for Buffy, and were it not for Spuffy, he'd very probably have no story at all (just look at the other Scoobs this season…). It may not be everything a Spike-fan could hope for, but Spike's role if that of 'romantic hero', and I want to see him triumph in it. I want to, for lack of a better word, to see him 'win'.

More than that, though, I want Buffy to start expressing some genuine, positive emotion. Yeah, I get that she's had a pretty shitty time of late, I understand why she's walled of her heart. But, sympathetic as I try to be, I'm also sick of it. Buffy use to be such a vibrant, open, romantic person - someone I really, genuinely liked. I want to see that person again. Buffy needs to live again, and to enjoy living - to 'live, give and forgive' to paraphrase that first slayer thingy. And, I'm somewhat sorry to say, at the moment the only way she could do that sufficiently to make me love her again is to admit she loves Spike and do something about it. That's probably not entirely fair to her character, but there is it.

Still, if, in the end, Spike doesn't win Buffy's love - if she decides she belongs with Angel, or that 'liberation' requires independence - then I'm all for Spike moving on. He's a pick-himself-up, dust-himself-off, try again kind of guy. With time, and the wisdom of experience, he may actually be able to find someone who appreciates him. But, again, I don't think it should be easy. Spike needs to make some major adjustments to thinking patterns before he rides into the sunset with someone else. Maybe - hopefully! - that's what the spin-off will be about; Spike getting a grip on himself and his life. But I'm skeptical about holding out for something that may or may not happen. I want Spuffy now because, given the limited time we have left, it's probably the only ending Spike could be truly happy with.

That said, I must admit that I love fanfic that explores over pairings. I guess I'm particularly fond of slash - probably for all the usual reasons - but I'll read anything that portrays Spike in a constructive relationship, be it romantic or merely friendly. When it comes to fic, my requirements aren’t that Spike end up with Buffy, but only that he find some kind of self-confidence and, preferably, some kind of love. Spike's got so much to give, I love it when he gets a little back.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

>>For good or ill, his entire storyline is now tied up with his intense, absorbing love for Buffy, and were it not for Spuffy, he'd very probably have no story at all (just look at the other Scoobs this season…). It may not be everything a Spike-fan could hope for, but Spike's role if that of 'romantic hero', and I want to see him triumph in it. I want to, for lack of a better word, to see him 'win'.<<

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree. It seems that, for the first time this season, Spike has a story that *isn't* intimately tied with Buffy's story. Spike dealing with his soul, the guilt, the chip, etc. has been a story about *Spike*, not Buffy. Buffy's involved, because it's her show, but it's not really about her. Compare this to season six when almost every scene Spike was in was really about Buffy.

I think for Spike, winning would involve regaining his self-respect and independence. I also think it demeans Buffy to view her as a prize for Spike to win. (Not that you meant it that way, but it's just an overall attitude that I'm uncomfortable with; the Ducks and B/X shippers often have similar perspectives and it creeps me out).

>>Buffy use to be such a vibrant, open, romantic person - someone I really, genuinely liked. I want to see that person again.<<

Yes, I know what you mean. It makes me so sad that her character has degenerated like this. I often can't even enjoy reruns of early seasons anymore because I just can't stand looking at her. Yet I really did like her (for the most part) back when I watched those early seasons the first time.

>>But I'm skeptical about holding out for something that may or may not happen. I want Spuffy now because, given the limited time we have left, it's probably the only ending Spike could be truly happy with.<<

But I think that if he got over her he *would* be happy, probably really happy for the first time in his (un)life. He's spent so much time basing his self-esteem on the view of others: Cecily, Drusilla, Buffy. Even if he does end up with Buffy, he'll still be beholden to her in an unhealthy, codependent way. It's not real character growth for Spike to end up with Buffy. It might make him (temporarily) happy, but it's not the best thing for him. If he could get over her, he would have a chance at *real* happiness; he could learn to value himself for all the wonderful things that make him who he is, instead of only feeling worthwhile because someone *else* values him.

[claudia-yvr.livejournal.com]

It's *your* journal, write what you like. You're thoughtfully using the lj-cut feature, so anyone that decides to follow the link does so at their own risk. If what they read offends them, tough beans.

I have to agree with you about Spike and Buffy. I lost my love for that pairing with Dead Things and personally would love to see Spike move on. I could go on and on about this, but it's 2am and I really need to go to bed.

BTW, the garlic should grow if you plant in soil.

[ladycat777.livejournal.com]

I love your icon. Lots. I may have to do a spandery version, if that's okay?

[claudia-yvr.livejournal.com]

Thanks :-) You'll have to ask anniesj - she's the talented one who made it for me!

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

>>I lost my love for that pairing with Dead Things and personally would love to see Spike move on.<<

See, I thought "Dead Things" could be great for S/B, because for the first time it looked like Buffy would address and deal with her issues instead of burying them. It also seemed to acknowledge that she was, in large part, the one preventing S/B from having a healthy relationship. Yet all the fascinating issues the episode raised were *completely* glossed over in subsequent episodes. So for me, I guess I lost interest either 1) when Buffy didn't flinch at Spike's bruises in "Older and Far Away" or 2) every single nausea inducing moment of the sad excuse for an episode that was called "As You Were."

>>BTW, the garlic should grow if you plant in soil.<<

Thanks! I might do that. I thought it was really cool to find life developing in my refrigerator (not mold life, 'cause ew, but garlic life is pretty neat).

[claudia-yvr.livejournal.com]

So for me, I guess I lost interest either 1) when Buffy didn't flinch at Spike's bruises in "Older and Far Away" or 2) every single nausea inducing moment of the sad excuse for an episode that was called "As You Were."

For me the turning point came when she went into the police station and found out who Katarina was and didn't bother telling Spike, just leaving him there in the alley. I thought that was beyond callous.

I have to admit I sometimes still read S/B fic if it addresses some of these issues or at least has Buffy treating Spike with respect - in other words, stories that are totally AU. (Yes, she has been treating him much better these last couple of episodes, but Spike is still too much the doormat in this relationship and I don't think it's healthy for him.)

This isn't the only time that ME has dropped the ball. I've been extremely disappointed with how they have dealt with Willow's issues this season. One kiss from KennedySue and all is well. Aside from almost destroying the world and torturing Warren to death, Willow has major control issues to deal with; particularly, how she mentally violated Tara not once, but twice. But that's another matter, as is the almost arbitrary way ME decided that she was 'gay now' as opposed to bisexual.

Luckily, there's some fabulous AU fic out there, some of which far better than anything that's unfolded onscreen this season.

[wickedprincess3.livejournal.com]

1. Rant away its called catharsis
2. S/B. I loved it at first. It was dark, sick, and twisted. Kind of like a beautiful train wreck. I thought their ship was much more destructive to him. That said, I am over it. Spike with a soul? over it. I know that on TV it's all about Buffy cause Joss still has some perverted idea that Buffy is pure sweetness and light (BS!) But as far as fic? I'm so over it.

[circe-tigana.livejournal.com]

It would be so much healthier for him to get over this dependence and grow as a person than it would for him to be trapped once again in a relationship with a person who is so wrong for him.</>

We've had some interesting conversations about this on BoB, almost always resulting in the proclamation "I'm a Spike fan not a Spuffy fan." I support Spuffy because Spike wants it so badly. The minute he wavers though, I wouldn't be happier.

They need an equal partnership for it to work, and I don't know that Buffy as she has been drawn by ME is capable of giving him that. In one BoB thread we were discussing Herself's Lovingkindness (the ending) and whether this was a Buffy who had changed. I say vehemently NO, though many Spuffy fans disagreed. That was the Buffy that you speak of in your post.

On the other hand, AllAboutSpike is an essential service :) Please don't get bored of fanfic before I do :)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

>>We've had some interesting conversations about this on BoB, almost always resulting in the proclamation "I'm a Spike fan not a Spuffy fan."<<

I like that! Definitely sounds like me.

>>AllAboutSpike is an essential service :) Please don't get bored of fanfic before I do<<

Hehe, thanks! I'll do my best...

[miggy.livejournal.com]

Hello! This is Kristen from BAPS/TabRas; hope you don't mind that I befriended you. (I think you may have sent me an email about archiving fics, but I couldn't find it the day after the fact and think it may have unfortunately come in the middle of a page's worth of spam.)

God, I so totally agree with all of this. Wanting a Spike/Buffy relationship would be like wanting him to sleep in a tub of holy water. It's hard for me to understand why anyone would want a character they care about to wind up with a person capable only of hurting others. I think it worked as a UC ship, as it even yet inspires some amazing writers. But I'd never, ever want to see it onscreen, in any form, again.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Hi! I love your posts on BAPS and TabRas.

I've had "Choosing Sisyphus" and "Misery" on my potential archiving list for ages (I figured you were either ignoring me or else you didn't get the email I sent). With your permission I'd love to archive them.

In regards to Spike/Buffy: at this point, I pretty much agree with what you said. It would be horrible for Spike to get together with Buffy in the next few episodes. I do think, though, that if we had another season, and if the writers decided to go with S/B again, they could make it work (although I'd really prefer to see Spike with someone else). If Buffy came out of her shell, stopped being so selfish and cold, and learned to care about and appreciate other people, I think she could be good for Spike. After so many seasons of cold Buffy, it's easy to forget how open, kind, honest, and well-meaning she was in the early seasons. Buffy was never the type of person I'd voluntarily choose to spend time with, but I think she could become much healthier and better to be around.

Of course, in order for that to happen, the writers would have to *recognize* that she has a problem, and sadly I don't see that ever happening. Wasn't it Marti Noxon who said that Buffy doesn't have to apologize for her S6 behavior, because she was being an "empowered woman" or whatever? (*vomits*) I guess basically I don't have any hope for Buffy as written by ME, although there are a few fanfic writers out there who can make her palatable to me again.

[miggy.livejournal.com]

Re: CS and Misery, go right ahead! I may be revising the last chapters eventually, so I can actually finished the damned thing; if so, they'll be uploaded to The Sandlot (http://www.the-sandlot.com) in the finished version without line breaks or any of that nonsense you get in email. Thanks for liking them!

I'm a bad person to try and convince on S/B, as I'm known among my circle of friends for only having liked her before she died... the first time. However, they could have convinced me that Spike could have helped her work through all the issues we saw developing in S2 to change into a person with the warm heart of S1 with the life experience of everything we saw following after. They didn't, and only managed to convince me that Buffy is a person best avoided by everyone, whether romantically or in friendship. It baffles me, because I know they didn't want me to have that view of their heroine. (But then, I'm not fond of how they write women as a general rule; the only ones I really like are Anya, Faith, and S3 Cordy.)

I went back and read some of your previous posts; this ties into what you said about authorial intent. I don't buy that, myself, at least not to the extent that it will change my opinion of a story. You did a great job of explaining that in reasonable terms and without pat statements. I say that because whenever I try to explain why I don't adhere to the notion of "the author is always right," I always wind up on some variant of, "Yeah, and ME thought they were telling a story where Riley is the perfect boyfriend and a true hero."

[wickedprincess3.livejournal.com]

Buffy is a person best avoided by everyone Seconded
Though I thought she was too whiny in S1

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

>>CS and Misery, go right ahead!<<

Awesome, thank you!

>>I'm a bad person to try and convince on S/B, as I'm known among my circle of friends for only having liked her before she died... the first time.<<

Heh, don't worry, I'm not trying to convince you. I just don't want to come off as *too* anti-Buffy, as I have friends who still like her and I don't want them to stop talking to me. While my instant emotional reaction to Buffy is one of irritation and disgust, I can intellectually understand why some people like and/or sympathize with her still.

>>But then, I'm not fond of how they write women as a general rule; the only ones I really like are Anya, Faith, and S3 Cordy<<

Sounds like me, too. (I am so loving the return of Faith!) Those are the only women who stand up for themselves and don't put on a meek little victim act most of the time.

[miggy.livejournal.com]

I just don't want to come off as *too* anti-Buffy, as I have friends who still like her and I don't want them to stop talking to me. While my instant emotional reaction to Buffy is one of irritation and disgust, I can intellectually understand why some people like and/or sympathize with her still.

Hee. I rant and rant, but I try to hide it behind LJ-cuts. I'm on the friends list of some amazing, amazing authors who write a Ms. Summers I can appreciate, if not like, and I don't want to shove my Buffy loathing in their faces. I can't even understand how anyone would like her at all at this point, but I do my best to respect the fact that others do. I know I don't want to be like some of the people on the mailing lists who swoop in and turn every positive thread into a negative one, that's for sure.

Forgot one thing about the stories... if you hadn't already planned to, could you list them under "Illyria" rather than my real name? My grandparents are learning to Google, and I doubt they'd be thrilled to find that their little darling granddaughter is writing demon porn.