rusty_halo

*comforting hugs* I believe you have compassion, I swear!

I can understand where you are coming from, even though I do like Buffy myself. But I have to confess, that's because "my Buffy" comes to terms a lot more with what happened on-screen and has different reactions and works through things. If I was only taking purely what showed on screen, rather than both my imagination and other people's fics - I don't know how I'd feel about her.

Hope your day brightens.

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Thanks. :)

See, that's the thing: I often like Buffy in fanfic quite a bit. But that's not the show. From what I saw onscreen, I don't like the character.

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From what I saw onscreen, I don't like the character.

I can understand why! Interestingly enough, (well, interesting to me) I had less of a problem with Season 6 Buffy than Season 7. Yes, Buffy did horrible things in Season 6, but I could buy how screwed up she was. Season 7 Buffy seems very cold to me, even though she's supposedly 'better'.

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http://users.livejournal.com/beingboring_/

Yes, Buffy did horrible things in Season 6, but I could buy how screwed up she was. Season 7 Buffy seems very cold to me, even though she's supposedly 'better'.
Thanks, you've just helped clarify how I feel in my mind. This is going to sound wanky, but I still thought I knew Buffy in season 6- I could see a clear line from who'd she'd been before to who she was then. I didn't always like her, but I got her.
And then season 7 Buffy came along and I just didn't recognise her- especially early season 7, where she was some photocopy of season 2 and 3 Buffy.

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Doesn't sound at all wanky to me, it's a lot how I feel actually! And then in 7, she doesn't make sense to me anymore. She flips between cold and frivolous for the most part. It doesn't help that none of the character relationships ring true for me at all in 7.

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The way I understood Season 7 Buffy was in context to Season 6 Buffy.

In Season 6 she hit rock bottom. Got fucked up. Let interpersonal relationships go to hell. Let the slaying go to hell. The world she fights to protect was nearly destroyed by one of her friends. The enemy was in HER camp, and she didn't (didn't want to) see.

Recriminations ensue.

Therefore, when Season 7 rolls around, Buffy is ready to be responsible again. She's stopped fucking about, has a new job, an adult job. She's trying to handle her life, to be an adult. Spike comes back and throws everything for a loop. Because she doesn't know what to do, she ignores him then foists him on Xander. She's acting, but is afraid to make him her problem because she is so new and tenuous in this adult role.

And then the Big Bad comes along, and Buffy sees a chance to atone for the cock-up that was all of Season 6. After shirking her slaying responsibilities all last year in favour of wallowing in her own personal misery, she's gonna do it right. This is the biggest of the big bads and she feels a tremendous amount of pressure.

So she becomes Slayer with a Capital S. She sees all these young girls, looking to her for guidance, and she molds herself into the ideal Slayer, the one that the Watcher's Council wanted, the one that's read the handbook, the one that Kendra might have been. She knows she's the ONE so she must be a leader. And if she's not, she'll have all this blood on her hands. She's already lost Tara. She's not going to lose another innocent through her carelessness.

(And here I'd like to point out that while much has been made of Willow's reaction to Tara's death, it has not been heavily discussed what affect this would have on Buffy. Tara was very important to Buffy in Season 6. And she died because of Buffy's (implied) negligence towards dealing conclusively with the Trio. I can't help but feel that this would have a tremendous effect on her need to solve problems immediately, and her impatience with those who don't understand that she is doing what she's doing because lives are at stake. How can she relax and be Buffy Summers, when people might die if the Slayer doesn't save them?)

She learns that leading is hard. And being Buffy, she internalizes all her stresses, which makes people think she's being cold.

Buffy isn't cold. She is not cold. She just draws all the tension inside her; believes that she can only rely on herself or people will die.

As Holden put it, she has an inferiority complex about her superiority complex.

Unfortunately, she ends up alienating those around her. Again, (to her mind) the only person who can fully emphathize with her is Spike. He knows that to be the Slayer is to forever be Other. And so as they get closer, she further alienates her friends, who could never approve of this relationship.

If Buffy is seen as being "cold" in Season 7, all the Scoobs must play a part in making it so.

Was Buffy arrogant? Yes. But she's always been arrogant. Was Buffy wrong on many occasions? Yes. But as always, she dealt with the consequences; not always gracefully, but she got it done.

I think Buffy in Season 7 was perfectly understandable. The thing about her is that she's not easy to love. Just ask Spike.

But I do believe that in the end, it's worth it.

PHEW! I think I'll post this in my journal ;)

And Laura, this is in no way meant to be critical of your position, I was just laying out my own thoughts on Season 7!

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I'll respond in your journal then :)

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See, the thing is, I didn't see any of that on screen. For example, you speak of how Buffy must have felt in response to Tara's death--but I never saw any reaction whatsoever from Buffy toward Tara's death. A day or two after Tara died, Buffy was walking out of a grave into an arborium and grinning, showing no concern whatsoever for what had just happened to Tara (or the fact that Giles was probably dead and Xander was missing). You can fanwank all sorts of reasons why Buffy did what she did and what she might have been feeling inside, but if it's not onscreen, who knows what she was really feeling (if anything).

Of course, I respect your right to disagree.

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Am I fanwanking? Yeah, to a large extent I am, and I thank you for pointing that out.

I do, however, not think that it is as simple as seeing things on the screen. Not only does every viewer bring their own baggage to viewings of the show, but that baggage will cause the same thing to be viewed differently each time: Was it rape? Was it a man pushed beyond his limits? Was it domestic abuse? Was it Buffy striking out at the badness in her life?

There are no hard and fast answers. Personally, I barely watch the show any more. I read fanfic. I write fanfic. I don't actually enjoy rewatching the show since it ended. Does this forever skew me into fanon? Maybe. So maybe I shouldn't be weighing in on this. But I really think that just because it wasn't explicitly on the screen doesn't mean it wasn't there.

How could Tara's death NOT affect Buffy? We are presented characters as growing individuals. People. Things in their lives affect them, whether it's shown on-screen or not. If Holden is allowed to present his one-sided version of who Buffy is, if Marti Noxon is, if Joss is, and if they all collide, why not me or you, too?

Does that make sense?

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Of course you're allowed to see the character however you want. But I'm explaining why I disagree.

See, it's one thing to have your own view of something that happened onscreen. We all do. It's another to pick something and say "well, this must've influenced the character" without any canonical evidence to back it up. When Joyce died, we saw Buffy struggling with it. We can interpret her struggle in different ways, but we know she struggled. When Tara died, we didn't get any reaction from Buffy whatsoever, so I don't think it's a viable argument to say "well, Buffy was upset by Tara's death." There's no canonical evidence for it.

It's like when people say "Giles was different in S7 because he was upset by the destruction of the Watcher's council." Well, you would think so, right? But there's no evidence. There was no line where we saw Giles shake his head sadly and say that everyone he knew was dead, or his whole life had been shaken, or whatever. You could just as easily say Giles was upset because his mother died. We have the same amount of evidence for both.

I also say this because I made assumptions about Buffy too. Back when "Dead Things" aired, I knew that Buffy said "Why do I let Spike do those things to me?", but I thought she also must have been feeling guilty about how she beat him to a pulp and left him in that alley. I mean, how could she not? It was horrible! Any compassionate person would feel guilty about treating her lover that way. She must've just been too guilty to tell Tara.... But of course, I was wrong. From what I've seen onscreen: she really didn't care. He was just a thing, and she was relieved when she finally got away from him. She never once tried to deal with, or even admit to anyone who mattered, the way she abused Spike.

So yeah, everyone's allowed their opinion on the characters, and there's nothing wrong with disagreement. But when you're debating someone about the canonical events of the show, I think you need to stick with what we actually have evidence for.

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This is really interesting to me, this whole idea of canonical evidence, because to be completely honest, I have trouble separating fanon and canon now.

Laura, here's a question, that since you're in the thick of things, you might be able to answer.

People who strongly dislike Buffy -- for the most part, writers of fanfic or non-writers?

Could the debate be simplified down to writers (like me) think they "understand" Buffy because we have to work out her motivations for fic?

This is most likely a gross generalization, but I think it's an interesting question.

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Well, I come from a discussion list culture where debate about the show becomes very intense. Any claim you make has to be rigorously defended or people will shred it apart. So you have to stick with canon, or assumptions that are heavily supported by canon. If you start throwing fanon in there, no one's going to buy your argument.

I can understand how fanfic writers who write Buffy would be more sympathetic to her. If you have to get inside the character's head and humanize her, you'll probably be more likely to feel for her. But that's still not the kind of evidence that you can use in a debate--I think some writers start to identify with Buffy because they write her so often, but their Buffy isn't the Buffy on the show. And I'm arguing about the Buffy on the show.

As far as the divide coming down to fanfic writers vs. non-fanfic writers--I don't think it's that easy. Maybe it's "fanfic writers who write Buffy" vs "people who don't write Buffy but may write other characters or not write at all."

miggy writes great Spike/Anya and Spike/Xander, and she can't stand Buffy.

chenanceou doesn't like Buffy, but she writes Spike fic. I suspect that if you already dislike Buffy you'll be a lot less likely to write her, but if you're ambivalent and then you start writing her, maybe you'll start to like her more.

I will say, though, that the fanon/canon divide is very sharp in my mind, and I don't mix the two. When I'm debating the character, I debate what I saw onscreen, not what I may have speculated without evidence or read in fic. I understand that for some people that line is more blurred; I'm not making a value judgement in general, but I do think if you're actually debating (vs just stating your opinion) you should stick to canon. Otherwise people could just make up anything and use it to defend their position.

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I will say, though, that the fanon/canon divide is very sharp in my mind, and I don't mix the two. When I'm debating the character, I debate what I saw onscreen, not what I may have speculated without evidence or read in fic.

The problem is, to my mind at least, that what's on-screen is translated through our own biases. If you go by script alone, a very different interpretation of events could occur. That whole business with James Marsters being upset at himself and Spike fans because of interpretations of the way he played the role is an example. The character got away from ME and they had to try to rein it in during late Season 6

I'm hideously bad at debate, but what I'm trying to say is that i honestly don't think there IS such a thing as pure canon. Is pure canon the shooting script? What if I interpret a line's delivery different than you and it makes Buffy seem sympathetic rather than harsh?

Or is pure canon what I see on my screen? What YOU see on YOUR screen might be very different. If I had been raped (god forbid), that scene in Seeing Red would have been very different to me than it was. Yet it would still be canon.

I argue that while there are certain undeniable canon "facts" like Joyce died, Tara died, Buffy died, Xander had a car in "The Zeppo", much of what makes us fans -- the final scene between Dawn and Buffy on the Tower in 'The Gift' -- is open to interpretation. Did Buffy sacrifice herself, or kill herself? She'd died, sure that's canon. But we wouldn't be fans HAVING debate if "pure canon" was all there was.

I don't think it's possible to stick to pure canon in debate.

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I think that if you're going to use something that isn't pure canon, you have to explain it based on canonical evidence. Like, I think Spike could have been redeemed without a soul. I have an essay here with a whole list of canonical reasons that I feel that way. Others may disagree because they think I didn't make the case convincingly, but it's still basically a debate over canon (over different interpretations of canon).

If you don't support it with canon, you can say literally anything. You can say "Giles was weird in season seven because his brain got possessed by aliens." You may well feel that way, but unless you have some evidence for it (it can be controversial/debatable evidence, but still, some evidence) it's not very good material for use in a debate.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't find your pro-Buffy arguments convincing because I don't see any canonical evidence for them at all; in fact, I see the opposite in some cases (like Buffy's happy little walk into the sunlight right after Tara died).

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txvoodoo.livejournal.com

This is so incredibly true. And I think it's why so many people are still hanging on to Spuffy-because there's a lot of lovely Spuffy fic out there that makes people forget the meanness that was Buffy onscreen, and evokes the potential sweetness that could have been shown.

I've let my Spuffy fade away. I don't want her near him again, not the way she ended on the show.

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Same here. I started out as a Spike/Buffy fan, but now I just want her to stay the hell away from him.

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chenanceou.livejournal.com

Quit making real life judgments about people just because they disagree with your opinion of a fictional TV character. Debate the opinion, not the person who holds the opinion.
=#=
There is nothing that irks me as much as personal attacks online over FICTIONAL characters. I have ranted about it and tried to not let it happen on the lists. Unfortunately the "protection" the net gives makes some people lose all pretense at rationality.
Disliking Buffy is your right (and mine as it happens)!
I do have to say though - I don't give a flying rat's ass about what people online say about me or if they chose to expose themselves as having no lives (and being in need of medication) when they go for the jugular over some tv show.
I used to care about the show. A lot. In some level I still do, but the passion is gone and I bless the day *somebody* went: "Bored now..." at ME and freed me.
Chen all cranky due to much NY missing

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Unfortunately the "protection" the net gives makes some people lose all pretense at rationality.

Yup. I just can't imagine rational people saying these kinds of things to each other in real life, but online they lack that boundary. At least on well-run discussion lists, a moderator will step in and stop the personal attacks. On LiveJournal people just say anything.

I know, I just shouldn't let it get to me, but it always does. I'm way too sensitive about these things.

We miss you in NY too! It was so fun to hang out. We definitely have to get together when you visit again.

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drujan.livejournal.com

I don't give a flying rat's ass about what people online say about me or if they chose to expose themselves as having no lives (and being in need of medication) when they go for the jugular over some tv show.

WORD. Personal attacks - over a stupid TV show of all things! - are beyond pathetic. I can't even pretend to respect those people who get personal when they disagree with your *opinion* about a *fictional* character.

As for Buffy - I despise her from the bottom of my heart, for all the reasons Laura listed. The onscreen Buffy finished her journey by turning into someone extremely selfish, cold, manipulative, and ultimately heartless. I don't hate her because I "lack compassion" - on the contrary, I have overwhelming compassion for Buffy's victims, and when I remember their suffering at her hands, I wish the bus she was riding drove off the cliff.

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monanotlisa.livejournal.com

"Quit making real life judgments about people just because they disagree with your opinion of a fictional TV character. Debate the opinion, not the person who holds the opinion."

WORD, Chen!!!

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nmissi.livejournal.com

Deep breath. It's over. The bitch is out of our lives. It's going to be okay.

Now, if you'd like to join me in getting the unhealthy, abusive presence that is Mutant Enemy out as well, all you have to do is not.watch.ATS. this season. It's that simple. You have no idea how much better you'll feel when you cut ties with the entire sick, twisted, lot of 'em at ME. It's easier than it seems. I've done it, and I'm okay. :)

And if you feel the need to vent Buffyhate, well, the bitchboard is still around. It doesn't get alot of traffic these days, but it's open for your pleasure. (or your therapy!)

http://pub26.ezboard.com/btheseethingcauldron

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Thanks for the link. :)

I do still have some hope for AtS. For one thing: no Buffy (pleeeease don't let SMG do a guest appearance). For another, I thought the storyarc of the last few episodes last season was wonderful. I like all of the characters minus Angel. Also, they've got some excellent writers this year (Goddard, DeKnight). I've still got some hope that the show will be good. I'm not expecting it (BtVS S7 had great potential too), but I'm willing to let myself be pleasantly surprised.

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queenofattolia.livejournal.com

You can't judge who I am from my opinions of a fictional character. It's like those people who call Spike fans "rape apologists" and "serial killer lovers." Quit making real life judgements about people just because they disagree with your opinion of a fictional TV character. Debate the opinion, not the person who holds the opinion.

Exactly. And these varying opinions are based on what we saw on the TV screen. My opinion about Buffy the character was irrevocably finalized in the last image of her on the screen: smiling because through the magical intercession of her best friend, her role as Slayer had been transferred to any number of unsuspecting, untried young girls around the globe. Being the Slayer had always been a terrible burden to her, and hot-cha! Willow freed her! So she smiled, with no thought about the implications of Willow's spell (Giles would handle that), and, incidentally, no discernable sad thoughts or feelings about the vampire whose death minutes before made her liberation possible.

I think it's telling that when Whedon was asked recently who his favorite character was on the show, he answered, "Willow." I think part of the reason Buffy was written as such a cold, unfeeling, unlikeable character for the final year and a half had less to do with her increasingly ether-like "burdens" and "dogged heroism" and more to do with the fact that Whedon and his writers no longer liked the character nor the actress playing her very much. It showed, let me tell you.

But then again, that's just my opinion, and just because I hold that opinion doesn't make me unfeeling, perfectionistic, overly harsh or mean. ME wrote Buffy as emotionless, hard, uncaring and selfish, and that's what I saw on the screen. YMMV, of course, but that's the beauty of individual perceptions in a free society.

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no discernable sad thoughts or feelings about the vampire whose death minutes before made her liberation possible.

And no thoughts for Anya, who'd just died horribly, or for Xander, who just lost his love (not that Xander seemed to care, but still), or for any of the girls who'd just been killed (not that Buffy ever bothered to learn their names anyway).

Yup, ITA with all you said.

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shipperx.livejournal.com

There were a lot of incidents that sealed my poor opinion of Buffy. I have to admit to having always had an ambivalent view of the character. I liked her in Season 2 and disliked her in Season 4 post Sanctuary. I liked her again in Season 5 and early Season 6. I grew VERY impatient with her during Smashed. And, like Laura, after OAFA I really had developed great distaste for the character. Rather than being horrified by her own actions in Dead Things, her horror was reserved for having sex with Spike. Hello! She just had an incredibly abusive incident and what she was horrified about was having slept with Spike? For "allowing" him to do these things as though she hadn't been a participant? I cut slack until OAFA when she looked into Spike's bruised face and never showed one single moment of embarrassment for having done that.

Still, I tried to forgive her. However, the point where I finally knew I'd never like the character again was in "Get it Done" when after wallowing in her own pain all of Season 6 she mocked Chloe's, Willow's, and Spike's. She then required of them something she didn't require of herself. The way she buried Chloe like a dead hamster was appalling. The way she mocked Spike was apalling as well. At some point Buffy's callous behavior and ego-centrism stopped being a foible and started to become a defining characteristic. Ultimately I agree with the "Chosen" review that said that at the end of the day Buffy didn't earn her "happy ending," it was given to her by SiTs whose names she never bothered to learn and by Spike who she privately denied until her words were too late to have meaning and who she never publicly acknowledged.

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So true. And I think a lot of it has to do with the writers seeing everything from her POV and automatically forgiving everything she does, never bothering to show us her real emotions or reasons for behaving horribly, and never, ever making her apologize or show remorse. Within the narrative, she gets away with such horrible acts, stuff that Spike or Anya would never be forgiven for. It's like the core scoobies are just better than everyone else, and Buffy is best of all, so they don't have to face the consequences of theirs actions like everyone else does.

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ceitnicangus.livejournal.com

I hate her, sometimes I like her, Sometemes I don't have any feelings for her, but she is not who I watched the show for at the end.

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caille.livejournal.com

Oh, sweetie, I so totally don't agree with you, but I just cain't he'p it, I still love and respect you. Life's too short not to, you know?

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I have no problem with people disagreeing; we all have the right to our own opinions. I just wish that people would disagree without attacking each other personally and making judgements about the other person's character.

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miggy.livejournal.com

What I remember here is you saying that you didn't much like Xander, and listing the reasons why. Then you apologized, saying that you didn't want to sound like you were bashing him to me. And I agreed, saying that yup, he sure does have (litany of negative qualities)! And that was that.

I honestly don't understand why all fan conversations can't be like that.

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buffyx.livejournal.com

Amen. Just because I view a character differently than others, I see no reason that my capacity for sympathy be taken into question; it's as ridiculous as judging someone's moral standards and calling them pro-rape because they have a fondness for the Spike/Buffy relationship. Absolutely ludicrous.

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queenofthorns.livejournal.com

Heh! But don't you understand, dear, that it's all about feeling superior to others? So the implication of "I appreciate a flawed heroine and I have compassion for her" is basically another way of saying "I'm better and smarter than Some Other Group of People" which is what seems to be the raison d'être of an astonishingly large portion of fandom ;)

As for me, I prefer to reserve my compassion for real people and like or dislike fictional characters for whatever rational and/or irrational reasons that I have because, hello, FICTIONAL CHARACTERS!

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Thank you! You've explained exactly why these people piss me off so very much. It's all about making themselves feel big by putting down other people.

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paratti.livejournal.com

WORD.
And don't let pillocks get you down.
:Hugs::

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