(no subject)

[rusty_halo]

I don't have a problem with complicated, flawed characters. I understand that Buffy endured a very difficult life that was bound to cause emotional problems. I liked and sympathized with Buffy quite a bit up until "Smashed."

However, when she began taking her pain out on other people, who didn't deserve it, I lost all respect for her. When she sobbed at the end of "Dead Things," not because she felt bad for hurting Spike, but because she felt bad for letting Spike taint her. When she didn't even flinch at the bruises on Spike's face in "Older and Far Away." When she never ever apologized to him for months of physical and emotional abuse, and never acknowledged to anyone (save a vampire who she proceeded to kill) that she was just as responsible for their fucked up relationship as Spike was.

Buffy could have regained my sympathy very easily if she'd shown any kind of remorse for the way she mistreated Spike. IMO - she didn't. And not only that, but the writing inplicitly excused all of her misbehavior. They harped on the AR over and over, but never once brought up the "Dead Things" beating. I'm disgusted by the double standard that the writers used in excusing all of Buffy's poor behavior. And for those reasons, I cannot stand the character.

I respect that others have the right to disagree. I have never once bashed or judged the people who like Buffy, and I would appreciate if they'd refrain from bashing and judging me. Accusing me of having "no compassion" and so on is just bullshit. You can't judge who I am from my opinions of a fictional character. It's like those people who call Spike fans "rape apologists" and "serial killer lovers." Quit making real life judgements about people just because they disagree with your opinion of a fictional TV character. Debate the opinion, not the person who holds the opinion.

Comments

Re: My take on Season 7 Buffy

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Of course you're allowed to see the character however you want. But I'm explaining why I disagree.

See, it's one thing to have your own view of something that happened onscreen. We all do. It's another to pick something and say "well, this must've influenced the character" without any canonical evidence to back it up. When Joyce died, we saw Buffy struggling with it. We can interpret her struggle in different ways, but we know she struggled. When Tara died, we didn't get any reaction from Buffy whatsoever, so I don't think it's a viable argument to say "well, Buffy was upset by Tara's death." There's no canonical evidence for it.

It's like when people say "Giles was different in S7 because he was upset by the destruction of the Watcher's council." Well, you would think so, right? But there's no evidence. There was no line where we saw Giles shake his head sadly and say that everyone he knew was dead, or his whole life had been shaken, or whatever. You could just as easily say Giles was upset because his mother died. We have the same amount of evidence for both.

I also say this because I made assumptions about Buffy too. Back when "Dead Things" aired, I knew that Buffy said "Why do I let Spike do those things to me?", but I thought she also must have been feeling guilty about how she beat him to a pulp and left him in that alley. I mean, how could she not? It was horrible! Any compassionate person would feel guilty about treating her lover that way. She must've just been too guilty to tell Tara.... But of course, I was wrong. From what I've seen onscreen: she really didn't care. He was just a thing, and she was relieved when she finally got away from him. She never once tried to deal with, or even admit to anyone who mattered, the way she abused Spike.

So yeah, everyone's allowed their opinion on the characters, and there's nothing wrong with disagreement. But when you're debating someone about the canonical events of the show, I think you need to stick with what we actually have evidence for.

Re: My take on Season 7 Buffy

[circe-tigana.livejournal.com]

This is really interesting to me, this whole idea of canonical evidence, because to be completely honest, I have trouble separating fanon and canon now.

Laura, here's a question, that since you're in the thick of things, you might be able to answer.

People who strongly dislike Buffy -- for the most part, writers of fanfic or non-writers?

Could the debate be simplified down to writers (like me) think they "understand" Buffy because we have to work out her motivations for fic?

This is most likely a gross generalization, but I think it's an interesting question.

Re: My take on Season 7 Buffy

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Well, I come from a discussion list culture where debate about the show becomes very intense. Any claim you make has to be rigorously defended or people will shred it apart. So you have to stick with canon, or assumptions that are heavily supported by canon. If you start throwing fanon in there, no one's going to buy your argument.

I can understand how fanfic writers who write Buffy would be more sympathetic to her. If you have to get inside the character's head and humanize her, you'll probably be more likely to feel for her. But that's still not the kind of evidence that you can use in a debate--I think some writers start to identify with Buffy because they write her so often, but their Buffy isn't the Buffy on the show. And I'm arguing about the Buffy on the show.

As far as the divide coming down to fanfic writers vs. non-fanfic writers--I don't think it's that easy. Maybe it's "fanfic writers who write Buffy" vs "people who don't write Buffy but may write other characters or not write at all." miggy writes great Spike/Anya and Spike/Xander, and she can't stand Buffy. chenanceou doesn't like Buffy, but she writes Spike fic. I suspect that if you already dislike Buffy you'll be a lot less likely to write her, but if you're ambivalent and then you start writing her, maybe you'll start to like her more.

I will say, though, that the fanon/canon divide is very sharp in my mind, and I don't mix the two. When I'm debating the character, I debate what I saw onscreen, not what I may have speculated without evidence or read in fic. I understand that for some people that line is more blurred; I'm not making a value judgement in general, but I do think if you're actually debating (vs just stating your opinion) you should stick to canon. Otherwise people could just make up anything and use it to defend their position.

Re: My take on Season 7 Buffy

[circe-tigana.livejournal.com]

I will say, though, that the fanon/canon divide is very sharp in my mind, and I don't mix the two. When I'm debating the character, I debate what I saw onscreen, not what I may have speculated without evidence or read in fic.

The problem is, to my mind at least, that what's on-screen is translated through our own biases. If you go by script alone, a very different interpretation of events could occur. That whole business with James Marsters being upset at himself and Spike fans because of interpretations of the way he played the role is an example. The character got away from ME and they had to try to rein it in during late Season 6

I'm hideously bad at debate, but what I'm trying to say is that i honestly don't think there IS such a thing as pure canon. Is pure canon the shooting script? What if I interpret a line's delivery different than you and it makes Buffy seem sympathetic rather than harsh?

Or is pure canon what I see on my screen? What YOU see on YOUR screen might be very different. If I had been raped (god forbid), that scene in Seeing Red would have been very different to me than it was. Yet it would still be canon.

I argue that while there are certain undeniable canon "facts" like Joyce died, Tara died, Buffy died, Xander had a car in "The Zeppo", much of what makes us fans -- the final scene between Dawn and Buffy on the Tower in 'The Gift' -- is open to interpretation. Did Buffy sacrifice herself, or kill herself? She'd died, sure that's canon. But we wouldn't be fans HAVING debate if "pure canon" was all there was.

I don't think it's possible to stick to pure canon in debate.

Re: My take on Season 7 Buffy

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I think that if you're going to use something that isn't pure canon, you have to explain it based on canonical evidence. Like, I think Spike could have been redeemed without a soul. I have an essay here with a whole list of canonical reasons that I feel that way. Others may disagree because they think I didn't make the case convincingly, but it's still basically a debate over canon (over different interpretations of canon).

If you don't support it with canon, you can say literally anything. You can say "Giles was weird in season seven because his brain got possessed by aliens." You may well feel that way, but unless you have some evidence for it (it can be controversial/debatable evidence, but still, some evidence) it's not very good material for use in a debate.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't find your pro-Buffy arguments convincing because I don't see any canonical evidence for them at all; in fact, I see the opposite in some cases (like Buffy's happy little walk into the sunlight right after Tara died).