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[rusty_halo]

I don't have a problem with complicated, flawed characters. I understand that Buffy endured a very difficult life that was bound to cause emotional problems. I liked and sympathized with Buffy quite a bit up until "Smashed."

However, when she began taking her pain out on other people, who didn't deserve it, I lost all respect for her. When she sobbed at the end of "Dead Things," not because she felt bad for hurting Spike, but because she felt bad for letting Spike taint her. When she didn't even flinch at the bruises on Spike's face in "Older and Far Away." When she never ever apologized to him for months of physical and emotional abuse, and never acknowledged to anyone (save a vampire who she proceeded to kill) that she was just as responsible for their fucked up relationship as Spike was.

Buffy could have regained my sympathy very easily if she'd shown any kind of remorse for the way she mistreated Spike. IMO - she didn't. And not only that, but the writing inplicitly excused all of her misbehavior. They harped on the AR over and over, but never once brought up the "Dead Things" beating. I'm disgusted by the double standard that the writers used in excusing all of Buffy's poor behavior. And for those reasons, I cannot stand the character.

I respect that others have the right to disagree. I have never once bashed or judged the people who like Buffy, and I would appreciate if they'd refrain from bashing and judging me. Accusing me of having "no compassion" and so on is just bullshit. You can't judge who I am from my opinions of a fictional character. It's like those people who call Spike fans "rape apologists" and "serial killer lovers." Quit making real life judgements about people just because they disagree with your opinion of a fictional TV character. Debate the opinion, not the person who holds the opinion.

Comments

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks. :)

See, that's the thing: I often like Buffy in fanfic quite a bit. But that's not the show. From what I saw onscreen, I don't like the character.

[swmbo.livejournal.com]

From what I saw onscreen, I don't like the character.

I can understand why! Interestingly enough, (well, interesting to me) I had less of a problem with Season 6 Buffy than Season 7. Yes, Buffy did horrible things in Season 6, but I could buy how screwed up she was. Season 7 Buffy seems very cold to me, even though she's supposedly 'better'.

[http://users.livejournal.com/beingboring_/]

Yes, Buffy did horrible things in Season 6, but I could buy how screwed up she was. Season 7 Buffy seems very cold to me, even though she's supposedly 'better'.
Thanks, you've just helped clarify how I feel in my mind. This is going to sound wanky, but I still thought I knew Buffy in season 6- I could see a clear line from who'd she'd been before to who she was then. I didn't always like her, but I got her.
And then season 7 Buffy came along and I just didn't recognise her- especially early season 7, where she was some photocopy of season 2 and 3 Buffy.

[swmbo.livejournal.com]

Doesn't sound at all wanky to me, it's a lot how I feel actually! And then in 7, she doesn't make sense to me anymore. She flips between cold and frivolous for the most part. It doesn't help that none of the character relationships ring true for me at all in 7.

My take on Season 7 Buffy

[circe-tigana.livejournal.com]

The way I understood Season 7 Buffy was in context to Season 6 Buffy.

In Season 6 she hit rock bottom. Got fucked up. Let interpersonal relationships go to hell. Let the slaying go to hell. The world she fights to protect was nearly destroyed by one of her friends. The enemy was in HER camp, and she didn't (didn't want to) see.

Recriminations ensue.

Therefore, when Season 7 rolls around, Buffy is ready to be responsible again. She's stopped fucking about, has a new job, an adult job. She's trying to handle her life, to be an adult. Spike comes back and throws everything for a loop. Because she doesn't know what to do, she ignores him then foists him on Xander. She's acting, but is afraid to make him her problem because she is so new and tenuous in this adult role.

And then the Big Bad comes along, and Buffy sees a chance to atone for the cock-up that was all of Season 6. After shirking her slaying responsibilities all last year in favour of wallowing in her own personal misery, she's gonna do it right. This is the biggest of the big bads and she feels a tremendous amount of pressure.

So she becomes Slayer with a Capital S. She sees all these young girls, looking to her for guidance, and she molds herself into the ideal Slayer, the one that the Watcher's Council wanted, the one that's read the handbook, the one that Kendra might have been. She knows she's the ONE so she must be a leader. And if she's not, she'll have all this blood on her hands. She's already lost Tara. She's not going to lose another innocent through her carelessness.

(And here I'd like to point out that while much has been made of Willow's reaction to Tara's death, it has not been heavily discussed what affect this would have on Buffy. Tara was very important to Buffy in Season 6. And she died because of Buffy's (implied) negligence towards dealing conclusively with the Trio. I can't help but feel that this would have a tremendous effect on her need to solve problems immediately, and her impatience with those who don't understand that she is doing what she's doing because lives are at stake. How can she relax and be Buffy Summers, when people might die if the Slayer doesn't save them?)

She learns that leading is hard. And being Buffy, she internalizes all her stresses, which makes people think she's being cold.

Buffy isn't cold. She is not cold. She just draws all the tension inside her; believes that she can only rely on herself or people will die.

As Holden put it, she has an inferiority complex about her superiority complex.

Unfortunately, she ends up alienating those around her. Again, (to her mind) the only person who can fully emphathize with her is Spike. He knows that to be the Slayer is to forever be Other. And so as they get closer, she further alienates her friends, who could never approve of this relationship.

If Buffy is seen as being "cold" in Season 7, all the Scoobs must play a part in making it so.

Was Buffy arrogant? Yes. But she's always been arrogant. Was Buffy wrong on many occasions? Yes. But as always, she dealt with the consequences; not always gracefully, but she got it done.

I think Buffy in Season 7 was perfectly understandable. The thing about her is that she's not easy to love. Just ask Spike.

But I do believe that in the end, it's worth it.

PHEW! I think I'll post this in my journal ;)

And Laura, this is in no way meant to be critical of your position, I was just laying out my own thoughts on Season 7!

Re: My take on Season 7 Buffy

[swmbo.livejournal.com]

I'll respond in your journal then :)

Re: My take on Season 7 Buffy

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

See, the thing is, I didn't see any of that on screen. For example, you speak of how Buffy must have felt in response to Tara's death--but I never saw any reaction whatsoever from Buffy toward Tara's death. A day or two after Tara died, Buffy was walking out of a grave into an arborium and grinning, showing no concern whatsoever for what had just happened to Tara (or the fact that Giles was probably dead and Xander was missing). You can fanwank all sorts of reasons why Buffy did what she did and what she might have been feeling inside, but if it's not onscreen, who knows what she was really feeling (if anything).

Of course, I respect your right to disagree.

Re: My take on Season 7 Buffy

[circe-tigana.livejournal.com]

Am I fanwanking? Yeah, to a large extent I am, and I thank you for pointing that out.

I do, however, not think that it is as simple as seeing things on the screen. Not only does every viewer bring their own baggage to viewings of the show, but that baggage will cause the same thing to be viewed differently each time: Was it rape? Was it a man pushed beyond his limits? Was it domestic abuse? Was it Buffy striking out at the badness in her life?

There are no hard and fast answers. Personally, I barely watch the show any more. I read fanfic. I write fanfic. I don't actually enjoy rewatching the show since it ended. Does this forever skew me into fanon? Maybe. So maybe I shouldn't be weighing in on this. But I really think that just because it wasn't explicitly on the screen doesn't mean it wasn't there.

How could Tara's death NOT affect Buffy? We are presented characters as growing individuals. People. Things in their lives affect them, whether it's shown on-screen or not. If Holden is allowed to present his one-sided version of who Buffy is, if Marti Noxon is, if Joss is, and if they all collide, why not me or you, too?

Does that make sense?

Re: My take on Season 7 Buffy

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Of course you're allowed to see the character however you want. But I'm explaining why I disagree.

See, it's one thing to have your own view of something that happened onscreen. We all do. It's another to pick something and say "well, this must've influenced the character" without any canonical evidence to back it up. When Joyce died, we saw Buffy struggling with it. We can interpret her struggle in different ways, but we know she struggled. When Tara died, we didn't get any reaction from Buffy whatsoever, so I don't think it's a viable argument to say "well, Buffy was upset by Tara's death." There's no canonical evidence for it.

It's like when people say "Giles was different in S7 because he was upset by the destruction of the Watcher's council." Well, you would think so, right? But there's no evidence. There was no line where we saw Giles shake his head sadly and say that everyone he knew was dead, or his whole life had been shaken, or whatever. You could just as easily say Giles was upset because his mother died. We have the same amount of evidence for both.

I also say this because I made assumptions about Buffy too. Back when "Dead Things" aired, I knew that Buffy said "Why do I let Spike do those things to me?", but I thought she also must have been feeling guilty about how she beat him to a pulp and left him in that alley. I mean, how could she not? It was horrible! Any compassionate person would feel guilty about treating her lover that way. She must've just been too guilty to tell Tara.... But of course, I was wrong. From what I've seen onscreen: she really didn't care. He was just a thing, and she was relieved when she finally got away from him. She never once tried to deal with, or even admit to anyone who mattered, the way she abused Spike.

So yeah, everyone's allowed their opinion on the characters, and there's nothing wrong with disagreement. But when you're debating someone about the canonical events of the show, I think you need to stick with what we actually have evidence for.

Re: My take on Season 7 Buffy

[circe-tigana.livejournal.com]

This is really interesting to me, this whole idea of canonical evidence, because to be completely honest, I have trouble separating fanon and canon now.

Laura, here's a question, that since you're in the thick of things, you might be able to answer.

People who strongly dislike Buffy -- for the most part, writers of fanfic or non-writers?

Could the debate be simplified down to writers (like me) think they "understand" Buffy because we have to work out her motivations for fic?

This is most likely a gross generalization, but I think it's an interesting question.

Re: My take on Season 7 Buffy

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Well, I come from a discussion list culture where debate about the show becomes very intense. Any claim you make has to be rigorously defended or people will shred it apart. So you have to stick with canon, or assumptions that are heavily supported by canon. If you start throwing fanon in there, no one's going to buy your argument.

I can understand how fanfic writers who write Buffy would be more sympathetic to her. If you have to get inside the character's head and humanize her, you'll probably be more likely to feel for her. But that's still not the kind of evidence that you can use in a debate--I think some writers start to identify with Buffy because they write her so often, but their Buffy isn't the Buffy on the show. And I'm arguing about the Buffy on the show.

As far as the divide coming down to fanfic writers vs. non-fanfic writers--I don't think it's that easy. Maybe it's "fanfic writers who write Buffy" vs "people who don't write Buffy but may write other characters or not write at all." miggy writes great Spike/Anya and Spike/Xander, and she can't stand Buffy. chenanceou doesn't like Buffy, but she writes Spike fic. I suspect that if you already dislike Buffy you'll be a lot less likely to write her, but if you're ambivalent and then you start writing her, maybe you'll start to like her more.

I will say, though, that the fanon/canon divide is very sharp in my mind, and I don't mix the two. When I'm debating the character, I debate what I saw onscreen, not what I may have speculated without evidence or read in fic. I understand that for some people that line is more blurred; I'm not making a value judgement in general, but I do think if you're actually debating (vs just stating your opinion) you should stick to canon. Otherwise people could just make up anything and use it to defend their position.

Re: My take on Season 7 Buffy

[circe-tigana.livejournal.com]

I will say, though, that the fanon/canon divide is very sharp in my mind, and I don't mix the two. When I'm debating the character, I debate what I saw onscreen, not what I may have speculated without evidence or read in fic.

The problem is, to my mind at least, that what's on-screen is translated through our own biases. If you go by script alone, a very different interpretation of events could occur. That whole business with James Marsters being upset at himself and Spike fans because of interpretations of the way he played the role is an example. The character got away from ME and they had to try to rein it in during late Season 6

I'm hideously bad at debate, but what I'm trying to say is that i honestly don't think there IS such a thing as pure canon. Is pure canon the shooting script? What if I interpret a line's delivery different than you and it makes Buffy seem sympathetic rather than harsh?

Or is pure canon what I see on my screen? What YOU see on YOUR screen might be very different. If I had been raped (god forbid), that scene in Seeing Red would have been very different to me than it was. Yet it would still be canon.

I argue that while there are certain undeniable canon "facts" like Joyce died, Tara died, Buffy died, Xander had a car in "The Zeppo", much of what makes us fans -- the final scene between Dawn and Buffy on the Tower in 'The Gift' -- is open to interpretation. Did Buffy sacrifice herself, or kill herself? She'd died, sure that's canon. But we wouldn't be fans HAVING debate if "pure canon" was all there was.

I don't think it's possible to stick to pure canon in debate.

Re: My take on Season 7 Buffy

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I think that if you're going to use something that isn't pure canon, you have to explain it based on canonical evidence. Like, I think Spike could have been redeemed without a soul. I have an essay here with a whole list of canonical reasons that I feel that way. Others may disagree because they think I didn't make the case convincingly, but it's still basically a debate over canon (over different interpretations of canon).

If you don't support it with canon, you can say literally anything. You can say "Giles was weird in season seven because his brain got possessed by aliens." You may well feel that way, but unless you have some evidence for it (it can be controversial/debatable evidence, but still, some evidence) it's not very good material for use in a debate.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't find your pro-Buffy arguments convincing because I don't see any canonical evidence for them at all; in fact, I see the opposite in some cases (like Buffy's happy little walk into the sunlight right after Tara died).

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

This is so incredibly true. And I think it's why so many people are still hanging on to Spuffy-because there's a lot of lovely Spuffy fic out there that makes people forget the meanness that was Buffy onscreen, and evokes the potential sweetness that could have been shown.

I've let my Spuffy fade away. I don't want her near him again, not the way she ended on the show.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Same here. I started out as a Spike/Buffy fan, but now I just want her to stay the hell away from him.