Since I haven't gotten my rant on in quite a while: Doctor Who fandom memes that piss me off

[rusty_halo]

I hate getting into arguments, but Doctor Who fandom is driving me fucking insane. So I'm going to rant here on my own journal, where no one has to see it if they don't want to.

Doctor Who fandom memes, and why they piss me off.

The Doctor was horribly mean to poor Harriet Jones.

Harriet Jones shot a retreating enemy in the back. She annihilated an entire society, including those who hadn't been fighting. Can you imagine if this was common practice? War would never end until one side had been completely destroyed; no one would ever surrender because they'd know they'd just get killed anyway.

Sure, it's easy for a human audience to shrug it off and say, "Well, they were just aliens," but the Doctor isn't human. We're all aliens to him and he saw one alien species behaving badly to another, and he did what he always does: put a stop to it. That's who the Doctor is, someone who sees injustice and acts to end it.

I like and sympathize with Harriet Jones, but she did something wrong, and she paid the price.

If you want to complain that the Doctor has no right to go interfering in alien societies, well, go ahead, but I don't see why you even watch the show, because all the Doctor does is interfere in alien societies.

People also like to complain that the Master's election as Prime Minister was a direct result of the Doctor bringing down Harriet Jones. It's a nice irony, but come on. If the Doctor could bring Jones down with six words, you really think the Master couldn't with fifteen satellites?

The Doctor and Rose deserved to be torn apart in "Doomsday" because of their callous behavior in previous episodes.

Oh, honestly. They're in love, they've been through harrowing events and come out stronger, they're traveling around the universe having adventures, and they're giddy and happy to be together. And, being that one of them is the Doctor, they run into trouble. What do they do?

A) Ignore the trouble and go off somewhere else to have more giddy fun.
B) Fix the trouble, help whoever they can, and continue to enjoy themselves while they do it.
C) Realize that the universe is a terrible awful place, and mope around being miserable for an entire season.

A) would be the callous response that a lot of fandom seems to think they did. B) would be the simultaneously compassionate and fun response they actually chose. C) would be the extremely depressing response that a lot of fandom wishes they'd chosen.

I have no problem with the Doctor and Rose being happy together and refusing to hide it. They don't have to help anyone, but they choose to. When someone saves your life, are you going to complain that they're not taking the situation seriously enough, or are you just going to be fucking glad that someone saved your life?

Seriously. They deserve all the fun they can get. The Doctor has saved the universe more times that I can count, and Rose did her own heart-of-the-TARDIS-absorbing universe-saving thing very recently too. This is the first happiness the Doctor's felt since he lost Gallifrey, and I can't believe there are bitter fans begrudging it because... what? They don't like the 'ship? They want everyone to be grim and miserable all the time? They've got some kind of Puritan idea that happiness must be punished?

As for "They brought about their own destruction," please. Queen Victoria brought about their destruction by being close-minded and afraid of anything beyond her own understanding. Torchwood brought about their destruction by being stupid and power hungry. The Doctor and Rose didn't do anything wrong. If they hadn't been there, Victoria would have been bitten and Britain would be ruled by werewolves. (LOL.) Instead, the Doctor and Rose showed up and saved the country, and what did they get? Banished. Torchwood resulted, and Torchwood tore them apart, which is tragic, and ironic, but it's certainly not their fault.

The Doctor brought up Rose constantly throughout season three.

He really didn't. He brought up Rose two times at the very beginning of the season, when he was still reeling from having lost her. Once in "Smith and Jones" and once in "The Shakespeare Code," the first two episodes.

He also said her name when other people asked about her--Donna in "The Runaway Bride" and Jack in "Utopia." Then the Master brought her up in "Last of the Time Lords," Martha brought her up in "Gridlock," and John Smith drew her in "Human Nature." So the show certainly didn't forget about her, but neither was the Doctor constantly yacking about her. The Doctor himself, of his own volition, only brought her up twice.

And why shouldn't she be mentioned? She was the first person the Doctor truly connected with since the Time War. Whether you like it or not, she had a huge impact on his life, and it would be ridiculous for the show to brush it off and pretend she wasn't important.

The Doctor never appreciated Martha.

Oh, except all those times he said "Thank you" and told her how much he appreciated her.

When people say this, what they mean is "The Doctor never fucked Martha." Which is a ship-war argument and is completely immune to logic.

The Doctor brings death and destruction wherever he goes, and leaves disaster behind him for others to clean up.

Oh, now this one is just silly. The Doctor goes where there is already (about to be) death and destruction, finds himself in the middle of it, and does what he can to help. It's a simple matter of cause and effect. The Doctor doesn't cause the tragedy; he just finds himself in bad situations and makes them better than they would've been without him. This doesn't stop people who only see a small part of the picture from assuming that the Doctor must be responsible, but they're just plain wrong.

As for leaving a mess behind--well, the mess was going to be there anyway. He's already taken the time to help the situation, right whatever wrong was going on; why should this imply an additional obligation to stick around and rebuild? It's not his place to go around rebuilding everyone else's societies anyway, and part of what the Doctor does is teach others how to help themselves. That would hardly work if he just hovered around forever doing everything for them.

The Doctor really thinks he's a god, his behavior is unacceptably arrogant, and he needs to be brought down.

Oh my god, what show are these people watching? He knows perfectly well that he isn't a god. He knew it when Rose was torn away from him forever. He knew it when he couldn't bring Astrid back. He knew it when he had to kill his entire species in order to save the universe. Seriously, if he were a god, he'd have been able to stop these horrible things from happening.

But what makes him the Doctor is that he keeps trying anyway. He's not a god, but in nearly every situation he encounters, he's the most powerful being in the room. This isn't arrogance; it's fact. He accepts that (to paraphrase Peter Parker's Uncle Ben) this power comes with responsibility. He acts to the best of his ability, even though he's not perfect, because he knows it's better to do something than to do nothing. How can you complain about arrogance when it manifests as "trying to save as many people as possible"?

Sometimes he screws up. Sometimes he does everything he possibly can but it's still not enough. Just about every time, though, he helps. He makes the situation better than it would have been without him. He can't save everyone on the Titanic, but he saves a few passengers and, oh yeah, the entire Earth. Do people really think the situation would have been better if the Doctor hadn't "arrogantly" tried to help? Because we'd all be dead if he hadn't.

As far as him deserving to be brought down? No, he doesn't deserve it. But he gets brought down anyway, or did you miss the look on his face when Astrid turned into stardust? When he realized Rose was gone forever? When the Master died in his arms? Every time he thinks of Gallifrey?

***

The other thing that's annoying me today: the fact that every time Doctor Who shows up on Fandom Wank, it turns into a big Rose-bashing extravaganza. It's just an excuse for a bunch of ugly grudgewank from bitter Martha fans, who are far more wanky than those they're mocking.

***

(Comments of whatever sort are fine, but as this is more of a rant than a reasoned argument meant to convince others, I'll probably not respond to anything too argumentative.)

[Cross-posted to InsaneJournal]

Comments

[jerrymcl89.livejournal.com]

I like Martha as a character, but in terms of the shipping aspect, it's kind of like the Buffy/Xander people. You don't get someone to love you just because you've paid your dues and "deserve it".

Regarding other knocks on the Doctor, I think he is arrogant and flawed, but I don't really see why that's a problem.

[writteninstars.livejournal.com]

I like Martha as a character, but in terms of the shipping aspect, it's kind of like the Buffy/Xander people. You don't get someone to love you just because you've paid your dues and "deserve it".

Well-said. Perfectly, actually.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

You don't get someone to love you just because you've paid your dues and "deserve it".

That's exactly it. The whole unstated expectation that the Doctor *owes* Martha anything more than friendship is just really creepy underneath.

I think he is arrogant and flawed, but I don't really see why that's a problem.

I agree that he's arrogant and flawed, but not to the degree that the fandom seems to think he is. His flaws make me love him because they make him a deeper and more interesting character, but so much of fandom reviles him for being imperfect (as if a "perfect" character could ever be interesting).

[elliptic-eye.livejournal.com]

You don't get someone to love you just because you've paid your dues and "deserve it".

Of course you don't. But you should get someone to respect you when you've paid your dues and deserve it, because that's what respect means.

I didn't want anything "more" than friendship for Martha either. Friendships/comradeships are my favorite dynamics in fiction. And Martha was his friend; they bonded just fine in episodes 3.01-3.07 and seemed even tighter in Blink for what we saw of them. But the departure scene at the end of Last of the Time Lords didn't even look much like respect to me, never mind friendship. It goes like this: Martha has responsibilities. Martha walks into the TARDIS, smiling, and explains that she's got responsibilities. Ten nods and looks bleak and it's basically like umpteen other companion departures.

Then Martha mentions: Oh, by the way? A lot of the time I was traveling with you, I got the vibe that you considered me inferior. Whereupon the Doctor does not seem to care much at all. Martha goes on: But you know what? As you yourself said so very casually, I just saved my planet and possibly the universe to boot. That's not such a bad score.

The Doctor's reaction? As bana05 has said in meta (http://bana05.livejournal.com/178351.html):

He tells Donna to be magnificent at the end of The Runaway Bride (with the implication she already is and to claim that magnificence), and he couldn’t even say, “Yes, Martha Jones, you are good”? A little chuckle. Really?

So, that's irksome. But what's far more irksome is this: In the same scene, Martha is concerned about his welfare. She inquires after him, demonstrating a desire for him to get on all right—something friends do. The Doctor never asks her anything of the sort. There is no reciprocity on any level—verbal, non-verbal, anything—about this. She just watched her planet die for a year. Surely the Doctor would be able to empathize, but apparently the only pain worth mentioning is his own. It's not a unique occurrence, either; compare the end of Family of Blood, one of my favorite episodes, fwiw, where Martha's actually had a friend die but only the Doctor's pain is examined at the end of the story. Even Six gave Peri a "sorry about the DJ."

That's a downer, and it's got nothing to do with shipping.


I think he is arrogant and flawed, but I don't really see why that's a problem.

I don't, either. What's off-putting for me isn't when the Doctor does something presumptuous/stupid/etc., but when he does it andnobody around him reacts to it. Yes, even in Old Skool (y halo thar, Vengeance on Varos). Because if he's flawed, but nobody seems to notice and it doesn't really become a feature of the 'verse, then what's the point? If we don't get to see the people who care about him and admire him struggling with it, what's the point? If we don't get to see him growing past it, what's the point?

That said, it seems very possible that VotD could be foreshadowing for a period when the Doctor does just that. I hope so; his flaws are plenty interesting when they're played with and explored.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

But you should get someone to respect you when you've paid your dues and deserve it, because that's what respect means.

Um, yep. And the Doctor does respect Martha, which we see when he hugs her, thanks her, tells her she's a star, saves her from falling into the sun, trusts her to look after him in 1913, and trusts her to save the world.

he couldn't even say, “Yes, Martha Jones, you are good”? A little chuckle. Really?

Um, he does. He literally says "Thank you," gives her a big hug, and follows it with "Martha Jones, you saved the world." And then she says "I am good" and he literally does give a little chuckle! This is everything the Martha fans keep insisting never happened, and it is right there on the screen. (Not to mention all the other hugs and thank yous throughout the series that were apparently only visible to those who don't love Martha.)

If we don't get to see the people who care about him and admire him struggling with it, what's the point?

We do see the people around him struggling with his flaws. Rose, Jack, Martha, Mickey, Jackie, Harriet Jones... all people who have to deal with the Doctor's flaws (and he has to deal with theirs).

If we don't get to see him growing past it, what's the point?

Um, because some flaws are just plain character traits. You can't "resolve" every character flaw, because then you'd be left with a perfect cipher instead of a character.

[elliptic-eye.livejournal.com]

And the Doctor does respect Martha, which we see when he hugs her, thanks her, tells her she's a star, saves her from falling into the sun, trusts her to look after him in 1913, and trusts her to save the world.

I agree with all of the above—it's part of why I loved S3. But then the respect seems to vanish at critical moments that makes the friendship ring hollow. He trusts her to defeat his arch-nemesis in a year-long propaganda war carried out in hell on earth, but he's unwilling to acknowledge that he doesn't, in fact, think she's second-rate. And in the context of the conversation, it's pretty clear that Martha's not talking about being second-rate romantic material. If it were Four, it wouldn't throw me, but it's unusual for Ten to be so unresponsive.

This is everything the Martha fans keep insisting never happened, and it is right there on the screen.

Yes, yes, it is. I even read it back blow-by-blow. I'm not missing the other scenes you're referencing, either; that's what I meant about their bonding quite nicely in 3.01-3.07, as well as their easy camaraderie in Blink. But it's precisely what makes LotTL and elements of FoB so jarring. It's as though somehow, at the worst moments, dramatically, her feelings are less real than his. That's practically the definition of absent respect. It's not just Martha who gets this, either; the end of LotTL is very similar to the end of GitF, where there's just as little follow-through (i.e.: zero).

We do see the people around him struggling with his flaws.

We do sometimes, and when we do, it's brilliant. But when we don't, it's kind of bizarre. He abandons Rose and Mickey on a ship full of killer androids with no expectation of being able to get back to them—yet nobody mentions to him that this was fairly astonishing, ever.

He leaves Jack behind for… reasons that can't have been too compelling, because he's over it at the end of LotTL despite that Jack hasn't changed any, and we never get any explanation. Good, fine. He's ditched companions before (Tegan and Peri, that is—SJS, not so much), and Jack's not exactly defenseless. Yet "what happened to that Jack feller, anyway?" never comes up in S2. It's just plain weird.

He condemns the Family to a series of eternal tortures, which certainly is playing God, because the universe isn't safe with them alive and he doesn't have the stones to execute them. Good, fine. Makes sense, given that he's already had to make that call re: the Daleks, and then proven in PotW that he just doesn't have enough killer juice left to do it again. I don't blame him. But because it's never given any other exploration, it falls flat; unlike Nine's inability to use the delta wave in PotW, it was actively boring.

He forgives the Master… for something he's not in any position to forgive. Really, unless you actually are God, I don't know how you could be in a position to forgive somebody for murdering somebody else, never mind somebody else's planet. So it looks rather presumptuous. Good, fine; the Doctor has been known to do presumptuous things, and with his age, you'd expect him to. But why does nobody have anything to say about it? At first it looked like Francine was going to do just that; I actually cheered when she delivered the "those things still happened" bit. But then she sees the error of her hatred and turns away to be comforted in Him. Or something. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Ten stopped her from becoming a murderer. I just wished he'd listened to her, too.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but I just read that scene completely differently, so we'll probably just have to agree to disagree on this.

I see Ten knowing that Martha's going to leave and not wanting to face losing her, so he babbles on about where to go next. But when she brings it up he knows the moment has come, and he gracefully accepts her decision to leave and thanks her for being awesome, even though he's hurting over being left alone again. He keeps his heartbreak to himself and focuses on telling her how great she is ("Martha Jones, you saved the world," which is a pretty huge acknowledgment!) And then she says she felt second best, but realizes she isn't, and he gives that chuckle of agreement. Because of course he doesn't think she's second best, and he's happy that she's realized it.

Then she comes back and gives her speech about unrequited love, and he doesn't say much because that's her big moment of self-realization. It's nothing to do with him (unless you buy into the whole "he's morally obligated to fall in love with her" argument); it's about her resolving her crush and moving on.

It's so patently obvious that he doesn't think she's second best in any kind of personal way. The only way he thinks she's second best is in a romantic sense, which, well, she is, through no fault of her own or any fault of his, just because sometimes romance doesn't work out.

As far as Ten being unresponsive... Ten is so emotionally unresponsive. It's one of his defining traits; that he can't stand facing difficult emotional situations. He runs away not because he doesn't care, but because he cares so much that he can't deal with the pain. He can't bring himself to say goodbye to Sarah Jane, to go back and deal with Jack, to talk about Gallifrey. He's constantly claiming he's all right when he isn't (GitF, 42). For all the complaints about how emo he is, Ten's method of dealing with emotional trauma is Repress Repress Repress. (Part of the greatness of "Doomsday" is that he finally gets over this enough to say goodbye, but it's too little too late in that his time runs out before he manages to tell Rose he loves her.)

It's as though somehow, at the worst moments, dramatically, her feelings are less real than his. That's practically the definition of absent respect. It's not just Martha who gets this, either; the end of LotTL is very similar to the end of GitF, where there's just as little follow-through

I really don't see this. In both GitF and LotTL, we see the events through the companion's POV. Of course we know that they're hurting. And the Doctor doesn't talk to them about it, because that's how he is; he runs rather than deal with emotional situations. But it's not like he's pouring out his pain to them either; he hides from his own pain too, puts on a happy face, and tries to move forward without dealing.

He abandons Rose and Mickey on a ship full of killer androids with no expectation of being able to get back to them—yet nobody mentions to him that this was fairly astonishing, ever.

The killer androids had been stopped. It was a life or death situation, and he choose the immediate life-saving action. It's not like he wanted to leave Rose and Mickey; as much as he liked Reinette he was immediately angsting about being stuck in the past. And he was looking out into the stars planning to get back to Rose and Mickey the very slow way, and immediately leaped at the chance to get back to them.

[continued below]

[elliptic-eye.livejournal.com]

He runs away not because he doesn't care, but because he cares so much that he can't deal with the pain.

Running is a response. Four's complete inability to reply to Leela at the end of Invasion of Time is a prime example. At the end of LotTL and GitF, I just didn't see a response.

As you say, we clearly got different reads on issues that may come down to actors' delivery, which is always going to remain subjective.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

. But because it's never given any other exploration, it falls flat; unlike Nine's inability to use the delta wave in PotW, it was actively boring.

I've heard the end of FoB called a lot of things, but never boring before! ;) I don't understand what you mean by "other exploration"; it was, itself, an exploration of Ten's character. It's part of a continuing exploration of his character that's been going on throughout the series. It doesn't have an easy answer; it taps into huge philosophical debates about the nature of power and vengeance that can't and shouldn't be resolved simply.

He leaves Jack behind for… reasons that can't have been too compelling, because he's over it at the end of LotTL despite that Jack hasn't changed any, and we never get any explanation.

But we do get an explanation, in "Utopia." The Doctor admits that he ran away because he didn't want to deal with Jack being "wrong," Jack talks about prejudice, the Doctor doesn't disagree, and they bond again and get over it. It's a great moment because the Doctor actually does learn something there, and we do see how other characters deal with his tendency to run away rather than face anything emotionally challenging.

But why does nobody have anything to say about it?

But why do the characters have to say anything? The audience is smart enough to think for ourselves. Are we really supposed to see it as 100% unproblematic that the Doctor forgives and cries over the man who gleefully tried to destroy humanity? Of course not. We're supposed to think about it and come to our own conclusions. It has multiple layers and interpretations, and the characters don't have to spell them all out for the audience to appreciate them.

I love that moment because it's simultaneously so illustrating of the Doctor's goodness, his ability to forgive (don't forget that he was held hostage for a year, too), and of his deep deep deep screwed up personal issues (he's so desperately lonely that he clings to a monster as long as he's of his own kind). It's another lovely example of the show's willingness to allow moral ambiguity, and leave the ultimate meaning up to the audience.

[jaydk.livejournal.com]

He trusts her to defeat his arch-nemesis in a year-long propaganda war carried out in hell on earth, but he's unwilling to acknowledge that he doesn't, in fact, think she's second-rate.

Martha says that she spent a long time thinking she was second-rate -- not that the Doctor ever thought that. Thinking she's second-rate is Martha's issue, not the Doctor's -- because, after all, he trusts her to carry out the plan to defeat the Master, and that's just one of several times he shows her trust and respect. I read that scene as Martha's final realization that she's not second-best -- the Doctor doesn't need to realize that because the Doctor never thought that. He's not the cause of Martha feeling that way -- it's her unrequited crush.

He condemns the Family to a series of eternal tortures, which certainly is playing God, because the universe isn't safe with them alive and he doesn't have the stones to execute them.

I totally read that scene differently. Considering we've seen Ten actively destroy or set up the destruction of antagonists ranging from the leader of the Sycorax to the Cybermen, the Daleks, the wire, the Beast, the Racnoss and her children, the plasmavore, the Carrionites, etc., I don't think Ten lacks the ability to kill if necessary. The Doctor could have easily allowed the Family's ship to blow up without giving them the warning to run, similar to the fate of the bad guys in School Reunion. I think he gives them that warning because he thinks death is too easy on the Family, considering they're going to die inevitably in three months or less anyway. I think the Doctor wants them to survive so he can punish them the way he thinks they truly deserve. This Doctor can be pretty damn dark.

[jerrymcl89.livejournal.com]

The only real unbreakable rule I have about flawed characters is this - I need to know that the writers realize they are flawed. Which I think the "Dr. Who" writers generally do. I sometimes wonder about "Torchwood", though.

[elliptic-eye.livejournal.com]

The only real unbreakable rule I have about flawed characters is this - I need to know that the writers realize they are flawed.

Agreed, with the caveat that I need to know from what makes it on the screen—I'm not really interested in all the Confidential stuff, and the show should speak for itself. Who does this some of the time for me, but falls through on it at the weirdest moments (GitF, LotTL, FoB, etc.).

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

It seems like what you're asking is that whenever the Doctor does something morally questionable, some other character has to actually speak up within the show and say "Doctor, you are wrong." What they're doing is far more complex because they leave it to the viewers to decide.

What the Doctor did to Harriet Jones and to the FoB *is* dark, and it's up to you to decide whether he was right. It's even possible to conclude that there's no "right" answer in those situations, just a bunch of difficult and questionable options no matter what you choose.

I don't need the show to shove its moral answers down my throat; I want it to ask interesting questions and leave them for me to think about. I think Doctor Who does an impressive job at this, especially for a supposed childrens' show.

[elliptic-eye.livejournal.com]

It seems like what you're asking is that whenever the Doctor does something morally questionable, some other character has to actually speak up within the show and say "Doctor, you are wrong."

No, that isn't what I want, though I can see how it looked that way. I want the people around the Doctor to act like people. Most of the time, they do. That doesn't mean other characters calling him an arse and giving him an itemized explanation of why, but it does mean that things he does should some effect on his dynamics with other people, and vice versa. Yet sometimes he does frankly bizarre stuff that just doesn't seem to register. Moments like that make the morality look more black-and-white, not less.

What they're doing is far more complex because they leave it to the viewers to decide.

Sometimes (Nine and the delta wave). Other times, I'm not so bowled over by the complexity (Daleks versus Cybermen. Behold, the seriousness of modern television, which the frivolity of past decades can never touch). Still other times, something that was almost worth thinking about after we've switched off the TV set gets a dimension leached out of it because it's as if it never happened (Ten leaves his teenaged companions on a spaceship of killer robots without any expectation of getting back to them, but this apparently has no ramifications for his relationship with Rose). And then there are the times when the show coasts on superficial imagery that flattens the situation's dynamics instead of allowing things free play (LotTL is blatantly set up in the mold of Brothers K, but it isn't Brothers K. It just isn't).

A situation becomes complex when they allow what characters do to complicate things.