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rusty_haloI hate getting into arguments, but Doctor Who fandom is driving me fucking insane. So I'm going to rant here on my own journal, where no one has to see it if they don't want to.
Doctor Who fandom memes, and why they piss me off.
The Doctor was horribly mean to poor Harriet Jones.
Harriet Jones shot a retreating enemy in the back. She annihilated an entire society, including those who hadn't been fighting. Can you imagine if this was common practice? War would never end until one side had been completely destroyed; no one would ever surrender because they'd know they'd just get killed anyway.
Sure, it's easy for a human audience to shrug it off and say, "Well, they were just aliens," but the Doctor isn't human. We're all aliens to him and he saw one alien species behaving badly to another, and he did what he always does: put a stop to it. That's who the Doctor is, someone who sees injustice and acts to end it.
I like and sympathize with Harriet Jones, but she did something wrong, and she paid the price.
If you want to complain that the Doctor has no right to go interfering in alien societies, well, go ahead, but I don't see why you even watch the show, because all the Doctor does is interfere in alien societies.
People also like to complain that the Master's election as Prime Minister was a direct result of the Doctor bringing down Harriet Jones. It's a nice irony, but come on. If the Doctor could bring Jones down with six words, you really think the Master couldn't with fifteen satellites?
The Doctor and Rose deserved to be torn apart in "Doomsday" because of their callous behavior in previous episodes.
Oh, honestly. They're in love, they've been through harrowing events and come out stronger, they're traveling around the universe having adventures, and they're giddy and happy to be together. And, being that one of them is the Doctor, they run into trouble. What do they do?
A) Ignore the trouble and go off somewhere else to have more giddy fun.
B) Fix the trouble, help whoever they can, and continue to enjoy themselves while they do it.
C) Realize that the universe is a terrible awful place, and mope around being miserable for an entire season.
A) would be the callous response that a lot of fandom seems to think they did. B) would be the simultaneously compassionate and fun response they actually chose. C) would be the extremely depressing response that a lot of fandom wishes they'd chosen.
I have no problem with the Doctor and Rose being happy together and refusing to hide it. They don't have to help anyone, but they choose to. When someone saves your life, are you going to complain that they're not taking the situation seriously enough, or are you just going to be fucking glad that someone saved your life?
Seriously. They deserve all the fun they can get. The Doctor has saved the universe more times that I can count, and Rose did her own heart-of-the-TARDIS-absorbing universe-saving thing very recently too. This is the first happiness the Doctor's felt since he lost Gallifrey, and I can't believe there are bitter fans begrudging it because... what? They don't like the 'ship? They want everyone to be grim and miserable all the time? They've got some kind of Puritan idea that happiness must be punished?
As for "They brought about their own destruction," please. Queen Victoria brought about their destruction by being close-minded and afraid of anything beyond her own understanding. Torchwood brought about their destruction by being stupid and power hungry. The Doctor and Rose didn't do anything wrong. If they hadn't been there, Victoria would have been bitten and Britain would be ruled by werewolves. (LOL.) Instead, the Doctor and Rose showed up and saved the country, and what did they get? Banished. Torchwood resulted, and Torchwood tore them apart, which is tragic, and ironic, but it's certainly not their fault.
The Doctor brought up Rose constantly throughout season three.
He really didn't. He brought up Rose two times at the very beginning of the season, when he was still reeling from having lost her. Once in "Smith and Jones" and once in "The Shakespeare Code," the first two episodes.
He also said her name when other people asked about her--Donna in "The Runaway Bride" and Jack in "Utopia." Then the Master brought her up in "Last of the Time Lords," Martha brought her up in "Gridlock," and John Smith drew her in "Human Nature." So the show certainly didn't forget about her, but neither was the Doctor constantly yacking about her. The Doctor himself, of his own volition, only brought her up twice.
And why shouldn't she be mentioned? She was the first person the Doctor truly connected with since the Time War. Whether you like it or not, she had a huge impact on his life, and it would be ridiculous for the show to brush it off and pretend she wasn't important.
The Doctor never appreciated Martha.
Oh, except all those times he said "Thank you" and told her how much he appreciated her.
When people say this, what they mean is "The Doctor never fucked Martha." Which is a ship-war argument and is completely immune to logic.
The Doctor brings death and destruction wherever he goes, and leaves disaster behind him for others to clean up.
Oh, now this one is just silly. The Doctor goes where there is already (about to be) death and destruction, finds himself in the middle of it, and does what he can to help. It's a simple matter of cause and effect. The Doctor doesn't cause the tragedy; he just finds himself in bad situations and makes them better than they would've been without him. This doesn't stop people who only see a small part of the picture from assuming that the Doctor must be responsible, but they're just plain wrong.
As for leaving a mess behind--well, the mess was going to be there anyway. He's already taken the time to help the situation, right whatever wrong was going on; why should this imply an additional obligation to stick around and rebuild? It's not his place to go around rebuilding everyone else's societies anyway, and part of what the Doctor does is teach others how to help themselves. That would hardly work if he just hovered around forever doing everything for them.
The Doctor really thinks he's a god, his behavior is unacceptably arrogant, and he needs to be brought down.
Oh my god, what show are these people watching? He knows perfectly well that he isn't a god. He knew it when Rose was torn away from him forever. He knew it when he couldn't bring Astrid back. He knew it when he had to kill his entire species in order to save the universe. Seriously, if he were a god, he'd have been able to stop these horrible things from happening.
But what makes him the Doctor is that he keeps trying anyway. He's not a god, but in nearly every situation he encounters, he's the most powerful being in the room. This isn't arrogance; it's fact. He accepts that (to paraphrase Peter Parker's Uncle Ben) this power comes with responsibility. He acts to the best of his ability, even though he's not perfect, because he knows it's better to do something than to do nothing. How can you complain about arrogance when it manifests as "trying to save as many people as possible"?
Sometimes he screws up. Sometimes he does everything he possibly can but it's still not enough. Just about every time, though, he helps. He makes the situation better than it would have been without him. He can't save everyone on the Titanic, but he saves a few passengers and, oh yeah, the entire Earth. Do people really think the situation would have been better if the Doctor hadn't "arrogantly" tried to help? Because we'd all be dead if he hadn't.
As far as him deserving to be brought down? No, he doesn't deserve it. But he gets brought down anyway, or did you miss the look on his face when Astrid turned into stardust? When he realized Rose was gone forever? When the Master died in his arms? Every time he thinks of Gallifrey?
***
The other thing that's annoying me today: the fact that every time Doctor Who shows up on Fandom Wank, it turns into a big Rose-bashing extravaganza. It's just an excuse for a bunch of ugly grudgewank from bitter Martha fans, who are far more wanky than those they're mocking.
***
(Comments of whatever sort are fine, but as this is more of a rant than a reasoned argument meant to convince others, I'll probably not respond to anything too argumentative.)
[Cross-posted to InsaneJournal]
Doctor Who fandom memes, and why they piss me off.
The Doctor was horribly mean to poor Harriet Jones.
Harriet Jones shot a retreating enemy in the back. She annihilated an entire society, including those who hadn't been fighting. Can you imagine if this was common practice? War would never end until one side had been completely destroyed; no one would ever surrender because they'd know they'd just get killed anyway.
Sure, it's easy for a human audience to shrug it off and say, "Well, they were just aliens," but the Doctor isn't human. We're all aliens to him and he saw one alien species behaving badly to another, and he did what he always does: put a stop to it. That's who the Doctor is, someone who sees injustice and acts to end it.
I like and sympathize with Harriet Jones, but she did something wrong, and she paid the price.
If you want to complain that the Doctor has no right to go interfering in alien societies, well, go ahead, but I don't see why you even watch the show, because all the Doctor does is interfere in alien societies.
People also like to complain that the Master's election as Prime Minister was a direct result of the Doctor bringing down Harriet Jones. It's a nice irony, but come on. If the Doctor could bring Jones down with six words, you really think the Master couldn't with fifteen satellites?
The Doctor and Rose deserved to be torn apart in "Doomsday" because of their callous behavior in previous episodes.
Oh, honestly. They're in love, they've been through harrowing events and come out stronger, they're traveling around the universe having adventures, and they're giddy and happy to be together. And, being that one of them is the Doctor, they run into trouble. What do they do?
A) Ignore the trouble and go off somewhere else to have more giddy fun.
B) Fix the trouble, help whoever they can, and continue to enjoy themselves while they do it.
C) Realize that the universe is a terrible awful place, and mope around being miserable for an entire season.
A) would be the callous response that a lot of fandom seems to think they did. B) would be the simultaneously compassionate and fun response they actually chose. C) would be the extremely depressing response that a lot of fandom wishes they'd chosen.
I have no problem with the Doctor and Rose being happy together and refusing to hide it. They don't have to help anyone, but they choose to. When someone saves your life, are you going to complain that they're not taking the situation seriously enough, or are you just going to be fucking glad that someone saved your life?
Seriously. They deserve all the fun they can get. The Doctor has saved the universe more times that I can count, and Rose did her own heart-of-the-TARDIS-absorbing universe-saving thing very recently too. This is the first happiness the Doctor's felt since he lost Gallifrey, and I can't believe there are bitter fans begrudging it because... what? They don't like the 'ship? They want everyone to be grim and miserable all the time? They've got some kind of Puritan idea that happiness must be punished?
As for "They brought about their own destruction," please. Queen Victoria brought about their destruction by being close-minded and afraid of anything beyond her own understanding. Torchwood brought about their destruction by being stupid and power hungry. The Doctor and Rose didn't do anything wrong. If they hadn't been there, Victoria would have been bitten and Britain would be ruled by werewolves. (LOL.) Instead, the Doctor and Rose showed up and saved the country, and what did they get? Banished. Torchwood resulted, and Torchwood tore them apart, which is tragic, and ironic, but it's certainly not their fault.
The Doctor brought up Rose constantly throughout season three.
He really didn't. He brought up Rose two times at the very beginning of the season, when he was still reeling from having lost her. Once in "Smith and Jones" and once in "The Shakespeare Code," the first two episodes.
He also said her name when other people asked about her--Donna in "The Runaway Bride" and Jack in "Utopia." Then the Master brought her up in "Last of the Time Lords," Martha brought her up in "Gridlock," and John Smith drew her in "Human Nature." So the show certainly didn't forget about her, but neither was the Doctor constantly yacking about her. The Doctor himself, of his own volition, only brought her up twice.
And why shouldn't she be mentioned? She was the first person the Doctor truly connected with since the Time War. Whether you like it or not, she had a huge impact on his life, and it would be ridiculous for the show to brush it off and pretend she wasn't important.
The Doctor never appreciated Martha.
Oh, except all those times he said "Thank you" and told her how much he appreciated her.
When people say this, what they mean is "The Doctor never fucked Martha." Which is a ship-war argument and is completely immune to logic.
The Doctor brings death and destruction wherever he goes, and leaves disaster behind him for others to clean up.
Oh, now this one is just silly. The Doctor goes where there is already (about to be) death and destruction, finds himself in the middle of it, and does what he can to help. It's a simple matter of cause and effect. The Doctor doesn't cause the tragedy; he just finds himself in bad situations and makes them better than they would've been without him. This doesn't stop people who only see a small part of the picture from assuming that the Doctor must be responsible, but they're just plain wrong.
As for leaving a mess behind--well, the mess was going to be there anyway. He's already taken the time to help the situation, right whatever wrong was going on; why should this imply an additional obligation to stick around and rebuild? It's not his place to go around rebuilding everyone else's societies anyway, and part of what the Doctor does is teach others how to help themselves. That would hardly work if he just hovered around forever doing everything for them.
The Doctor really thinks he's a god, his behavior is unacceptably arrogant, and he needs to be brought down.
Oh my god, what show are these people watching? He knows perfectly well that he isn't a god. He knew it when Rose was torn away from him forever. He knew it when he couldn't bring Astrid back. He knew it when he had to kill his entire species in order to save the universe. Seriously, if he were a god, he'd have been able to stop these horrible things from happening.
But what makes him the Doctor is that he keeps trying anyway. He's not a god, but in nearly every situation he encounters, he's the most powerful being in the room. This isn't arrogance; it's fact. He accepts that (to paraphrase Peter Parker's Uncle Ben) this power comes with responsibility. He acts to the best of his ability, even though he's not perfect, because he knows it's better to do something than to do nothing. How can you complain about arrogance when it manifests as "trying to save as many people as possible"?
Sometimes he screws up. Sometimes he does everything he possibly can but it's still not enough. Just about every time, though, he helps. He makes the situation better than it would have been without him. He can't save everyone on the Titanic, but he saves a few passengers and, oh yeah, the entire Earth. Do people really think the situation would have been better if the Doctor hadn't "arrogantly" tried to help? Because we'd all be dead if he hadn't.
As far as him deserving to be brought down? No, he doesn't deserve it. But he gets brought down anyway, or did you miss the look on his face when Astrid turned into stardust? When he realized Rose was gone forever? When the Master died in his arms? Every time he thinks of Gallifrey?
***
The other thing that's annoying me today: the fact that every time Doctor Who shows up on Fandom Wank, it turns into a big Rose-bashing extravaganza. It's just an excuse for a bunch of ugly grudgewank from bitter Martha fans, who are far more wanky than those they're mocking.
***
(Comments of whatever sort are fine, but as this is more of a rant than a reasoned argument meant to convince others, I'll probably not respond to anything too argumentative.)
[Cross-posted to InsaneJournal]
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 12:15 am (UTC)I don't know why fandom has these huge invented issues with the Doctor, but I would like them to stop.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 12:27 am (UTC)And knowing that these are the issues people have? Well, yeah, I am really grateful to just watch the show and love on it 'cause these folks are crazy to me!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 12:37 am (UTC)Rusty Davies has said, as has Julie Gardner, that Rose and the Doctor were in love and that he was mourning her during series three. I don't know why these 'ship wars erupt when it comes to Rose/Martha. Ten loved Rose. He liked Martha. Did he treat Martha poorly? If their relationship would be looked at realistically, rather than through rose-colored glasses (oh the irony), Martha was the one that was in love with him, and she knew full well that he had lost someone very close to him. That didn't stop her from following him around making eyes at him and then getting all upset when he didn't return her affections. While I don't hate the character of Martha, I do dislike the way she was written. If we could have had "Last of the Time Lords" Martha all series long, I would have been more than happy with that. But we didn't. We got love sick Martha instead, mooning after a man who was completely unavailable to her. As Ten put it in "The Sound of Drums", it's like when you fancy someone and they have no idea you're alive. Yeah, exactly like that. It wasn't that Ten didn't know she existed, it's just he didn't see past his own pain to even consider that Martha was in love with him. She was his companion, a friend, that's all.
While I respect that there are other 'ships out there besides Ten/Rose, I just don't understand the venom towards Rose by the Martha fans. It makes no sense to me.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 12:46 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 12:53 am (UTC)Regarding other knocks on the Doctor, I think he is arrogant and flawed, but I don't really see why that's a problem.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 01:00 am (UTC)No, I don't think the Doctor was horribly mean to Harriet Jones. I do think he was irresponsible. While he doesn't think he is a god, he does believe himself to be a higher authority (as he states in New Earth) and he does not like being crossed when it comes to the big stuff. Whether Harriet Jones had a right to shoot the Sycorax out of the sky is debatable, but the Doctor who has preached against changing time lines again and again, took down "The Golden Age of Britain" because he didn't like her actions. That was a deliberate decision on his part which had consequences, one of which there was a power vaccuum that was taken advantage of by The Master. Would the Master still have wreaked havoc and tried to destroy the world? Hell, yeah. But, just as the events of "Bad Wolf" are a consequence of "The Long Game" and, yes, to an extent "Doomsday" is a result of "Tooth & Claw", the Master's ascension to that particular place is a result of "The Christmas Invasion."
In fact, I think that's one thing that New Who *has* done exceptionally well: made the Doctor fallible and shown that there are consequences. Yes, he does a tremendous amount of good but everything has a cost. And while it isn't his job, as you say, to stick around and play clean-up, I'd think he'd have some sort of obligation to ensure that he didn't make things worse. There is, of course, the issue of free will but I think his actions in TCI come off as a bit arrogant, which totally fits in with his "I'm that kind of man" characterization.
As far as Rose deserving to be ripped into an alternate world because of their hubris? I agree with you. I don't think she deserved it. But on the flip side, T&C was the one episode where I thought Rose was extremely OOC. She has always been the Doctor's compassion, the heart where he was logic. Her inappropriate quips in front of the Queen, while Lady Isobel was standing right next to her were really in poor taste and jarring for the character. There was a woman whose husband had just sacrificed himself to save the three of them and Rose and the Doctor are making childish jokes? I'll never forgive the writers for that one because that's *not* the Rose I knew.
As for the Rose and Martha stuff - Yes. ITA. Any reasonable debate on their characterization has been lost in the fire of ship wars and there's no sense even trying. That road is long and bitter, my friend.
I think I can see the nuggets of where fandom is coming up with the assumptions that are making you nuts, but with most things fannish, there are some people who push it to the wall.
And since this isn't said in Who fandom nearly enough: YMMV. ;)
edited because "infallible" and "fallible" are really two entirely different concepts. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 01:02 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 01:13 am (UTC)Re Harriet, I'm still totally convinced she paid for the Brig's Silurians go boom back in the Three era - something the Doctor really held a grudge and could only bitch about while he was exiled to Earth./Old Skooler
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 01:21 am (UTC):-)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 01:53 am (UTC)Well-said. Perfectly, actually.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 02:49 am (UTC)I was actually a bit appalled when I discovered the online DW fandom because...WHOA! There were bunch of serious loons in it. I mean, there are in every fandom...I am not saying I'm loon immune in any case...I can go off in my own right into loon territory. But I've got as much invested in the Doctor as anybody. I watched the show from the very beginning on American television...so since the 1970s...and find that New Who gives me exactly the same man...with a little more life experience under his belt...in a more perilous position. He's still lovable and fantastic and his loving Rose did nothing but give him extra dimension as a character.
Rae
ranting her own self...sorry! Oh...and I should pimp my Doctor/Rose fic...in case you do remember me from All About Spike and wanted to see what I was doing with this fandom.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 05:18 am (UTC)It's like every fan faction has a different grudge against the Doctor. He's too perky or he's too dark or he didn't fawn over their favorite character enough or... just, argh. I thought there'd be more Doctor fans in Doctor Who fandom. I am still in that OMGSQUEE! stage and venturing out into DW fandom is like having a bucket of cold water thrown over all my happy thoughts.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 05:22 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 05:38 am (UTC)That's exactly it. The whole unstated expectation that the Doctor *owes* Martha anything more than friendship is just really creepy underneath.
I think he is arrogant and flawed, but I don't really see why that's a problem.
I agree that he's arrogant and flawed, but not to the degree that the fandom seems to think he is. His flaws make me love him because they make him a deeper and more interesting character, but so much of fandom reviles him for being imperfect (as if a "perfect" character could ever be interesting).
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 05:40 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 05:42 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 05:54 am (UTC)Yes. Exactly. She went into this situation knowing that he was in mourning, and just expected him to get over it instantly and fall for her. And when he didn't, she resented him for it. People don't work that way--you can't just snap your fingers and recover from a loss, and human beings are not interchangeable. It doesn't matter how awesome Martha was (and the show took great pains to shove down our throats how COMPLETELY PERFECT she is). She's not Rose and at that point it just wasn't going to happen.
The thing that gets me is, yes, of course it's disappointing to love someone who doesn't love you, but still. ALL OF TIME AND SPACE. She's got ALL OF TIME AND SPACE and all she can do is whine that the alien she's traveling with won't sleep with her. I don't care how painful it is be around an unrequited crush; you'd have had to pry that TARDIS from my cold dead fingers.
I just don't understand the venom towards Rose by the Martha fans. It makes no sense to me.
It makes sense to me. They know perfectly well that their ship is nothing compared to Rose and the Doctor. It's venom borne of shipper bitterness, nothing more.
Sorry if I'm overly ranty toward Martha in this. I didn't put it in the post because I know it's subjective, but I just can't stand her. I think the actress is completely flat and the character is entirely one-dimensional. She's more of a Mary Sue than Rose ever was; her only human flaw is a crush. Otherwise the show takes constant pains to constantly prove that she's perfect, which does not make an interesting character.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 06:06 am (UTC)A few comments:
1) I like Harriet Jones, but the Sycorax were retreating, and that makes what she did murder. Sympathetic characters can commit terrible acts -- what Harriet did isn't right just because we like her. I think the Doctor had as much right to take her down as he did to defend the Earth from the Sycorax in the first place -- which is actually, none at all when you think about it. The Doctor does what he does not because he has the right, but because it's the right thing to do. And I love the reminder that as much as the Doctor loves humanity, he's not going to turn a blind eye to the murder of another species that was no longer in conflict with Earth. Go Ten, says I.
2) I have never understood why the Doctor and Rose are perceived as so freakin' awful for enjoying their adventures through time and space. That's one of the reasons I love them -- because they do enjoy themselves so much together. And while Rose's joke was a little stupid in Tooth & Claw, I certainly don't think some irreverence meant she "deserved" to have her heart broken. Torchwood's imperialist greed had far more direct responsibility for Rose being trapped in Pete's World, especially since it happened because she and the Doctor were in the process of saving the world from Torchwood's near-destruction of it. The people who make the actual decision to punch a hole through dimensions out of greed have more responsibility than the people who made a bad joke nearly 150 years ago. Crazy idea, eh?
3) The Doctor actually doesn't bring Rose up in Gridlock -- Martha references her. The Doctor brings up Rose himself all of twice in series three, in just the first two episodes, and yet somehow, this is perceived to be "constant" and that the Doctor is somehow stuck on Rose. Honestly, I think the Doctor will always miss Rose, but he's pretty much gotten over the worst of the grief by the mid-point of the series at the latest. Much as I loathe that Dalek two-parter, I think encountering the Daleks again and trying to help them change is actually healing for him in terms of all he's lost thanks to the Daleks (at least until the Master brings the pain of Gallifrey back again). I think it's notable that it's after this encounter that the Doctor gives up the "just one trip" bit with Martha and makes her a full-fledged companion. The Doctor is able to move on, IMO...
4)...but the problem I guess is that the Doctor never moves on to Martha romantically. So therefore, all of his hugs and his thanks and his trusting Martha to take care of human him in 1913 and having faith in Martha to spread the story that would save the world -- none of that matters, because the Doctor doesn't return Martha's romantic feelings and somehow, the only way one can appreciate someone is to fall in love with them. That argument is just totally ridiculous to me -- you have to actively ignore what happens on-screen to make it. Like the Doctor saying thank you a lot!
5) The usual situation is people are dying, the Doctor shows up, he and his companions help save the day, and people stop dying. Not everything the Doctor does is right, but what about the responsibility of the people in the situation to make the right choices? Don't they have at least as much responsibility for what happens next, if not more? If the Doctor helps clean up your mess, why is it his job to keep you from making another one -- isn't that your job?
6) Which goes to the final point -- the Doctor isn't a god, and he knows it. He does his best, but he still loses. The courage of the Doctor is he keeps trying. I don't see how the better alternative would be for the Doctor to believe he can't make a difference when he can, or not act rather than act to save lives. The Doctor makes changes in history every time he saves someone or cures someone or stops someone -- and with his level of knowledge, even choosing not to act is a choice that will affect others. I think the Doctor acts not because he thinks he's a god, but because he thinks he's right -- and most of the time, he is.
Ahh, that was fun -- although mostly just repeating your well-stated points. But still fun! ;-)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 06:13 am (UTC)Yep, I totally remember you from the Spike days! I still have you on my FL, actually, I just hardly ever comment. It's really cool that you're writing fic in this fandom too.
I really enjoyed the Doctor/Rose relationship in canon; Billie Piper had great chemistry with both actors, and she's an excellent actress. I really loved their whole "traveling around having adventures" thing; they didn't get bogged down in any of that silly "why can't we settle down and be normal" angst that so often afflicts such ships. I love that Rose chose to stay with the Doctor even though it meant losing her family, and that he accepted it, and it was fate--rather than their decisions--that tore them apart. (Such a nice contrast to Buffy's "I want to be normal!" and Angel's "This decision is final and I'm making it for your own good.")
I'm not really a shipper, though, and I don't get into Doctor/Rose in fanfic. I'm pretty exclusively into slash these days, and the only ship I've gotten into is Doctor/Master. >:)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 06:17 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 06:22 am (UTC)In contrast, the Martha fans are throwing a bitch fit about nothing. Both the first and last episodes of the season were ALL ABOUT how awesome Martha was, with plenty of episodes in between highlighting her awesomeness. Her entire story arc was "starts out awesome, ends up EVEN MORE AWESOME." The ONLY THING her fans didn't get was their ship, and I think what's really offensive is them bringing up major real life issues and then using them to justify their side in a ship war.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 06:44 am (UTC)You totally owe me an anti-Martha rant now. I hear bits of it every weekend; just write it all up in your LJ! ;)
The Doctor actually doesn't bring Rose up in Gridlock -- Martha references her.
Dammit, I knew I was going to get that wrong! I actually almost asked you about it on the phone, but I didn't want my boss to hear. Is there a transcript site out there somewhere? I need to be able to fact-check these things. :P
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 06:50 am (UTC)and Britain would be ruled by werewolves.
I want to see that episode!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 07:20 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-01-26 07:28 am (UTC)I know, I know on the Martha thing. You're so determined to get me in the thick of it.
I know how many times the Doctor brings up Rose in series 3 because I've gotten into the "The Doctor doesn't appreciate Martha!" argument at least 2 or 3 times on Outpost Gallifrey. It goes something like this:
"The Doctor is responsible for Martha's poor self-esteem -- he's always talking about Rose!"
"The Doctor only brings up Rose twice, in the first two episodes of the series."
"The Doctor constantly brings up Rose! Poor Martha!"
"He doesn't reference Rose after the second episode!"
"But he's always talking about Rose! Why can't he appreciate Martha!"
"The Doctor thanks Martha, he hugs her, he trusts her..."
"Why oh why does he treat Martha so badly! Martha ftw!"
I exaggerate, but not by much. My favorite argument there was that the Doctor must be putting Martha down OFF-SCREEN, thus invalidating any on-screen appreciation, because otherwise why would Martha feel second-best? It couldn't possibly have anything to do with, say, an unrequited crush....? No, that could never make someone feel second-best, it's gotta be the Doctor's fault, that jerk.
Second-hand forum arguments -- fascinating, I know! ;-)