Since I haven't gotten my rant on in quite a while: Doctor Who fandom memes that piss me off

[rusty_halo]

I hate getting into arguments, but Doctor Who fandom is driving me fucking insane. So I'm going to rant here on my own journal, where no one has to see it if they don't want to.

Doctor Who fandom memes, and why they piss me off.

The Doctor was horribly mean to poor Harriet Jones.

Harriet Jones shot a retreating enemy in the back. She annihilated an entire society, including those who hadn't been fighting. Can you imagine if this was common practice? War would never end until one side had been completely destroyed; no one would ever surrender because they'd know they'd just get killed anyway.

Sure, it's easy for a human audience to shrug it off and say, "Well, they were just aliens," but the Doctor isn't human. We're all aliens to him and he saw one alien species behaving badly to another, and he did what he always does: put a stop to it. That's who the Doctor is, someone who sees injustice and acts to end it.

I like and sympathize with Harriet Jones, but she did something wrong, and she paid the price.

If you want to complain that the Doctor has no right to go interfering in alien societies, well, go ahead, but I don't see why you even watch the show, because all the Doctor does is interfere in alien societies.

People also like to complain that the Master's election as Prime Minister was a direct result of the Doctor bringing down Harriet Jones. It's a nice irony, but come on. If the Doctor could bring Jones down with six words, you really think the Master couldn't with fifteen satellites?

The Doctor and Rose deserved to be torn apart in "Doomsday" because of their callous behavior in previous episodes.

Oh, honestly. They're in love, they've been through harrowing events and come out stronger, they're traveling around the universe having adventures, and they're giddy and happy to be together. And, being that one of them is the Doctor, they run into trouble. What do they do?

A) Ignore the trouble and go off somewhere else to have more giddy fun.
B) Fix the trouble, help whoever they can, and continue to enjoy themselves while they do it.
C) Realize that the universe is a terrible awful place, and mope around being miserable for an entire season.

A) would be the callous response that a lot of fandom seems to think they did. B) would be the simultaneously compassionate and fun response they actually chose. C) would be the extremely depressing response that a lot of fandom wishes they'd chosen.

I have no problem with the Doctor and Rose being happy together and refusing to hide it. They don't have to help anyone, but they choose to. When someone saves your life, are you going to complain that they're not taking the situation seriously enough, or are you just going to be fucking glad that someone saved your life?

Seriously. They deserve all the fun they can get. The Doctor has saved the universe more times that I can count, and Rose did her own heart-of-the-TARDIS-absorbing universe-saving thing very recently too. This is the first happiness the Doctor's felt since he lost Gallifrey, and I can't believe there are bitter fans begrudging it because... what? They don't like the 'ship? They want everyone to be grim and miserable all the time? They've got some kind of Puritan idea that happiness must be punished?

As for "They brought about their own destruction," please. Queen Victoria brought about their destruction by being close-minded and afraid of anything beyond her own understanding. Torchwood brought about their destruction by being stupid and power hungry. The Doctor and Rose didn't do anything wrong. If they hadn't been there, Victoria would have been bitten and Britain would be ruled by werewolves. (LOL.) Instead, the Doctor and Rose showed up and saved the country, and what did they get? Banished. Torchwood resulted, and Torchwood tore them apart, which is tragic, and ironic, but it's certainly not their fault.

The Doctor brought up Rose constantly throughout season three.

He really didn't. He brought up Rose two times at the very beginning of the season, when he was still reeling from having lost her. Once in "Smith and Jones" and once in "The Shakespeare Code," the first two episodes.

He also said her name when other people asked about her--Donna in "The Runaway Bride" and Jack in "Utopia." Then the Master brought her up in "Last of the Time Lords," Martha brought her up in "Gridlock," and John Smith drew her in "Human Nature." So the show certainly didn't forget about her, but neither was the Doctor constantly yacking about her. The Doctor himself, of his own volition, only brought her up twice.

And why shouldn't she be mentioned? She was the first person the Doctor truly connected with since the Time War. Whether you like it or not, she had a huge impact on his life, and it would be ridiculous for the show to brush it off and pretend she wasn't important.

The Doctor never appreciated Martha.

Oh, except all those times he said "Thank you" and told her how much he appreciated her.

When people say this, what they mean is "The Doctor never fucked Martha." Which is a ship-war argument and is completely immune to logic.

The Doctor brings death and destruction wherever he goes, and leaves disaster behind him for others to clean up.

Oh, now this one is just silly. The Doctor goes where there is already (about to be) death and destruction, finds himself in the middle of it, and does what he can to help. It's a simple matter of cause and effect. The Doctor doesn't cause the tragedy; he just finds himself in bad situations and makes them better than they would've been without him. This doesn't stop people who only see a small part of the picture from assuming that the Doctor must be responsible, but they're just plain wrong.

As for leaving a mess behind--well, the mess was going to be there anyway. He's already taken the time to help the situation, right whatever wrong was going on; why should this imply an additional obligation to stick around and rebuild? It's not his place to go around rebuilding everyone else's societies anyway, and part of what the Doctor does is teach others how to help themselves. That would hardly work if he just hovered around forever doing everything for them.

The Doctor really thinks he's a god, his behavior is unacceptably arrogant, and he needs to be brought down.

Oh my god, what show are these people watching? He knows perfectly well that he isn't a god. He knew it when Rose was torn away from him forever. He knew it when he couldn't bring Astrid back. He knew it when he had to kill his entire species in order to save the universe. Seriously, if he were a god, he'd have been able to stop these horrible things from happening.

But what makes him the Doctor is that he keeps trying anyway. He's not a god, but in nearly every situation he encounters, he's the most powerful being in the room. This isn't arrogance; it's fact. He accepts that (to paraphrase Peter Parker's Uncle Ben) this power comes with responsibility. He acts to the best of his ability, even though he's not perfect, because he knows it's better to do something than to do nothing. How can you complain about arrogance when it manifests as "trying to save as many people as possible"?

Sometimes he screws up. Sometimes he does everything he possibly can but it's still not enough. Just about every time, though, he helps. He makes the situation better than it would have been without him. He can't save everyone on the Titanic, but he saves a few passengers and, oh yeah, the entire Earth. Do people really think the situation would have been better if the Doctor hadn't "arrogantly" tried to help? Because we'd all be dead if he hadn't.

As far as him deserving to be brought down? No, he doesn't deserve it. But he gets brought down anyway, or did you miss the look on his face when Astrid turned into stardust? When he realized Rose was gone forever? When the Master died in his arms? Every time he thinks of Gallifrey?

***

The other thing that's annoying me today: the fact that every time Doctor Who shows up on Fandom Wank, it turns into a big Rose-bashing extravaganza. It's just an excuse for a bunch of ugly grudgewank from bitter Martha fans, who are far more wanky than those they're mocking.

***

(Comments of whatever sort are fine, but as this is more of a rant than a reasoned argument meant to convince others, I'll probably not respond to anything too argumentative.)

[Cross-posted to InsaneJournal]

Comments

[versaphile.livejournal.com]

This is basically the rant I've been wanting to write since getting back into the fandom. Thank you for doing it for me so I can just nod along instead of froth endlessly at my journal.

I don't know why fandom has these huge invented issues with the Doctor, but I would like them to stop.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks! It was definitely a relief to finally write all that. I'm just kind of boggled by how very little relation the fannish discourse has with the actual show that I watched.

It's like every fan faction has a different grudge against the Doctor. He's too perky or he's too dark or he didn't fawn over their favorite character enough or... just, argh. I thought there'd be more Doctor fans in Doctor Who fandom. I am still in that OMGSQUEE! stage and venturing out into DW fandom is like having a bucket of cold water thrown over all my happy thoughts.

[versaphile.livejournal.com]

This fandom is brutal on the squee. I find it best not to dare outside my own little corner too much for that reason.

I think it's because there's such a wide spectrum of stories in DW that people become very invested in their particular preferences to the point where they become hostile when things don't match their expectations. Sort of like the downside to a "diverse rainbow". If all you care about is yellow, you really hate those red and green bastards.

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

I think it's because there's such a wide spectrum of stories in DW that people become very invested in their particular preferences to the point where they become hostile when things don't match their expectations.

I agree with this completely. The fascinating thing about this show is it's created to be watched on so many levels - a six year-old is going to get something completely different from the text than a male fan or female fan. Where the problem comes in is when people say "my interpretation of the text is the *correct* interpretation of the text". I think there's enough wiggle room built in so that my interpretation of the Doctor as dark and twisted can live along side of the fangirls "teen dream fluffy Doctor". I don't have to agree with their interpretation but it doesn't mean it's not valid.

Like I said below, this fandom is bereft of YMMV. It's all "To the Wall! We will plant our flag and fight to the death!" Who has the time?

[versaphile.livejournal.com]

Or the energy? Me, I need the squee to enjoy myself. I can't do the constant negativity thing, or I just have to stop watching. I would love to put some prozac in the fandom water source, let me tell you.

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

I need the squee to enjoy myself. I can't do the constant negativity thing, or I just have to stop watching.

For real. I have people on my flist (who I like) that don't own a bowl of cornflakes that someone hasn't pissed in. Why bother watching? I mean, my love isn't blind - the show has warts and occasionally goes in directions I'm not fond of (Doctor JesusFairy anyone?) but if the squee isn't there it's really just an exercise in frustration.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Doctor JesusFairy anyone

Hee, I'm like the only person who likes that! I don't care how silly it is; the whole show is silly. It's got a lot of moments that I think you have to see from the "little kid" perspective in order to enjoy them at all. If I was trying to watch this show from a logical adult perspective I'd be rolling my eyes every five minutes.

I was just like "ooh, nifty, the Doctor's flying! and thank god he's hot again!" And then it was followed by the slashiest scene ever. Apparently I alternate between child perspective and slash perspective, hmmm...

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

Hee, I'm like the only person who likes that!

Yes, you are. *g*

I wrote a review for a DW fanzine and my biggest nitpick wasn't the floating, but that the scene had no grounding in any sort of science. If he were anywhere but on earth, I'd buy it, but for a show that trots out the fake skience to explain everything, flying on the faith of a kabillion people was just a bit too Tinkerbell. However, thank GOD he was hot again...even he was performing Jedi mind tricks. ;)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I keep seeing "scientific accuracy" as a big sticking point for a lot of the fandom. I'm assuming it comes out of the history of the fandom and a more sci-fi mentality than I'm used to.

All I'm really interested in is the characters, and in having interesting stories that will bring out more aspects of the characters. As far as I'm concerned, the science is just there to justify the plots, which are just there to serve the characters. Yes, it's really all about characters to me.

So all I need is one line thrown in to give it some kind of vague logical backing. Fifteen satellites? The Doctor's integrated into the Archangel network? Sure, whatever. He's back and now he's crying! I want to immerse myself in the emotion he's feeling; I could care less how the show got him there plot-wise.

(I mean... he's an alien traveling around in a magic box... none of it really makes sense anyway.)

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

It was a huge sticking point because it backtracked on it's own canon. Whenever a character veered into "oooh..magic!" territory the Doctor was always quick to point out it was just technology on a different level. So to handwave that sent up a huge WTF flag. I can see him breaking the hold of the satellites by tapping into the "mind-control" energy created by a fellow Time-Lord but defying the laws of gravity by sheer good will pushed it a tiny bit too far. But there were people who were cool with the handwave so *shrug*. That's why I have a "fast forward" button. ;)

[psubrat.livejournal.com]

Wait! I liked it too!! But I'm weird that way.

[writteninstars.livejournal.com]

How happy am I that I'm not actively *in* that fandom? I love the show. A lot. But I have zero interest of being swallowed up in wank like I used to be when I was *in* Buffy fandom.

And knowing that these are the issues people have? Well, yeah, I am really grateful to just watch the show and love on it 'cause these folks are crazy to me!

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

There's some really good fic in the fandom. But, yeah, I've pretty much only lurked in the discussion areas, because I want to keep my squee going as long as possible. I spent way too much time in Buffy fandom complaining and arguing; I just want to have fun now.

[queenofattolia.livejournal.com]

Exactly what she (writteninstars) said. She and I are of one mind where DW is concerned.

[psubrat.livejournal.com]

Word. Just...word.

Rusty Davies has said, as has Julie Gardner, that Rose and the Doctor were in love and that he was mourning her during series three. I don't know why these 'ship wars erupt when it comes to Rose/Martha. Ten loved Rose. He liked Martha. Did he treat Martha poorly? If their relationship would be looked at realistically, rather than through rose-colored glasses (oh the irony), Martha was the one that was in love with him, and she knew full well that he had lost someone very close to him. That didn't stop her from following him around making eyes at him and then getting all upset when he didn't return her affections. While I don't hate the character of Martha, I do dislike the way she was written. If we could have had "Last of the Time Lords" Martha all series long, I would have been more than happy with that. But we didn't. We got love sick Martha instead, mooning after a man who was completely unavailable to her. As Ten put it in "The Sound of Drums", it's like when you fancy someone and they have no idea you're alive. Yeah, exactly like that. It wasn't that Ten didn't know she existed, it's just he didn't see past his own pain to even consider that Martha was in love with him. She was his companion, a friend, that's all.

While I respect that there are other 'ships out there besides Ten/Rose, I just don't understand the venom towards Rose by the Martha fans. It makes no sense to me.

[jerrymcl89.livejournal.com]

I like Martha as a character, but in terms of the shipping aspect, it's kind of like the Buffy/Xander people. You don't get someone to love you just because you've paid your dues and "deserve it".

Regarding other knocks on the Doctor, I think he is arrogant and flawed, but I don't really see why that's a problem.

[writteninstars.livejournal.com]

I like Martha as a character, but in terms of the shipping aspect, it's kind of like the Buffy/Xander people. You don't get someone to love you just because you've paid your dues and "deserve it".

Well-said. Perfectly, actually.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

You don't get someone to love you just because you've paid your dues and "deserve it".

That's exactly it. The whole unstated expectation that the Doctor *owes* Martha anything more than friendship is just really creepy underneath.

I think he is arrogant and flawed, but I don't really see why that's a problem.

I agree that he's arrogant and flawed, but not to the degree that the fandom seems to think he is. His flaws make me love him because they make him a deeper and more interesting character, but so much of fandom reviles him for being imperfect (as if a "perfect" character could ever be interesting).

[elliptic-eye.livejournal.com]

You don't get someone to love you just because you've paid your dues and "deserve it".

Of course you don't. But you should get someone to respect you when you've paid your dues and deserve it, because that's what respect means.

I didn't want anything "more" than friendship for Martha either. Friendships/comradeships are my favorite dynamics in fiction. And Martha was his friend; they bonded just fine in episodes 3.01-3.07 and seemed even tighter in Blink for what we saw of them. But the departure scene at the end of Last of the Time Lords didn't even look much like respect to me, never mind friendship. It goes like this: Martha has responsibilities. Martha walks into the TARDIS, smiling, and explains that she's got responsibilities. Ten nods and looks bleak and it's basically like umpteen other companion departures.

Then Martha mentions: Oh, by the way? A lot of the time I was traveling with you, I got the vibe that you considered me inferior. Whereupon the Doctor does not seem to care much at all. Martha goes on: But you know what? As you yourself said so very casually, I just saved my planet and possibly the universe to boot. That's not such a bad score.

The Doctor's reaction? As bana05 has said in meta (http://bana05.livejournal.com/178351.html):

He tells Donna to be magnificent at the end of The Runaway Bride (with the implication she already is and to claim that magnificence), and he couldn’t even say, “Yes, Martha Jones, you are good”? A little chuckle. Really?

So, that's irksome. But what's far more irksome is this: In the same scene, Martha is concerned about his welfare. She inquires after him, demonstrating a desire for him to get on all right—something friends do. The Doctor never asks her anything of the sort. There is no reciprocity on any level—verbal, non-verbal, anything—about this. She just watched her planet die for a year. Surely the Doctor would be able to empathize, but apparently the only pain worth mentioning is his own. It's not a unique occurrence, either; compare the end of Family of Blood, one of my favorite episodes, fwiw, where Martha's actually had a friend die but only the Doctor's pain is examined at the end of the story. Even Six gave Peri a "sorry about the DJ."

That's a downer, and it's got nothing to do with shipping.


I think he is arrogant and flawed, but I don't really see why that's a problem.

I don't, either. What's off-putting for me isn't when the Doctor does something presumptuous/stupid/etc., but when he does it andnobody around him reacts to it. Yes, even in Old Skool (y halo thar, Vengeance on Varos). Because if he's flawed, but nobody seems to notice and it doesn't really become a feature of the 'verse, then what's the point? If we don't get to see the people who care about him and admire him struggling with it, what's the point? If we don't get to see him growing past it, what's the point?

That said, it seems very possible that VotD could be foreshadowing for a period when the Doctor does just that. I hope so; his flaws are plenty interesting when they're played with and explored.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

But you should get someone to respect you when you've paid your dues and deserve it, because that's what respect means.

Um, yep. And the Doctor does respect Martha, which we see when he hugs her, thanks her, tells her she's a star, saves her from falling into the sun, trusts her to look after him in 1913, and trusts her to save the world.

he couldn't even say, “Yes, Martha Jones, you are good”? A little chuckle. Really?

Um, he does. He literally says "Thank you," gives her a big hug, and follows it with "Martha Jones, you saved the world." And then she says "I am good" and he literally does give a little chuckle! This is everything the Martha fans keep insisting never happened, and it is right there on the screen. (Not to mention all the other hugs and thank yous throughout the series that were apparently only visible to those who don't love Martha.)

If we don't get to see the people who care about him and admire him struggling with it, what's the point?

We do see the people around him struggling with his flaws. Rose, Jack, Martha, Mickey, Jackie, Harriet Jones... all people who have to deal with the Doctor's flaws (and he has to deal with theirs).

If we don't get to see him growing past it, what's the point?

Um, because some flaws are just plain character traits. You can't "resolve" every character flaw, because then you'd be left with a perfect cipher instead of a character.

[elliptic-eye.livejournal.com]

And the Doctor does respect Martha, which we see when he hugs her, thanks her, tells her she's a star, saves her from falling into the sun, trusts her to look after him in 1913, and trusts her to save the world.

I agree with all of the above—it's part of why I loved S3. But then the respect seems to vanish at critical moments that makes the friendship ring hollow. He trusts her to defeat his arch-nemesis in a year-long propaganda war carried out in hell on earth, but he's unwilling to acknowledge that he doesn't, in fact, think she's second-rate. And in the context of the conversation, it's pretty clear that Martha's not talking about being second-rate romantic material. If it were Four, it wouldn't throw me, but it's unusual for Ten to be so unresponsive.

This is everything the Martha fans keep insisting never happened, and it is right there on the screen.

Yes, yes, it is. I even read it back blow-by-blow. I'm not missing the other scenes you're referencing, either; that's what I meant about their bonding quite nicely in 3.01-3.07, as well as their easy camaraderie in Blink. But it's precisely what makes LotTL and elements of FoB so jarring. It's as though somehow, at the worst moments, dramatically, her feelings are less real than his. That's practically the definition of absent respect. It's not just Martha who gets this, either; the end of LotTL is very similar to the end of GitF, where there's just as little follow-through (i.e.: zero).

We do see the people around him struggling with his flaws.

We do sometimes, and when we do, it's brilliant. But when we don't, it's kind of bizarre. He abandons Rose and Mickey on a ship full of killer androids with no expectation of being able to get back to them—yet nobody mentions to him that this was fairly astonishing, ever.

He leaves Jack behind for… reasons that can't have been too compelling, because he's over it at the end of LotTL despite that Jack hasn't changed any, and we never get any explanation. Good, fine. He's ditched companions before (Tegan and Peri, that is—SJS, not so much), and Jack's not exactly defenseless. Yet "what happened to that Jack feller, anyway?" never comes up in S2. It's just plain weird.

He condemns the Family to a series of eternal tortures, which certainly is playing God, because the universe isn't safe with them alive and he doesn't have the stones to execute them. Good, fine. Makes sense, given that he's already had to make that call re: the Daleks, and then proven in PotW that he just doesn't have enough killer juice left to do it again. I don't blame him. But because it's never given any other exploration, it falls flat; unlike Nine's inability to use the delta wave in PotW, it was actively boring.

He forgives the Master… for something he's not in any position to forgive. Really, unless you actually are God, I don't know how you could be in a position to forgive somebody for murdering somebody else, never mind somebody else's planet. So it looks rather presumptuous. Good, fine; the Doctor has been known to do presumptuous things, and with his age, you'd expect him to. But why does nobody have anything to say about it? At first it looked like Francine was going to do just that; I actually cheered when she delivered the "those things still happened" bit. But then she sees the error of her hatred and turns away to be comforted in Him. Or something. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Ten stopped her from becoming a murderer. I just wished he'd listened to her, too.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but I just read that scene completely differently, so we'll probably just have to agree to disagree on this.

I see Ten knowing that Martha's going to leave and not wanting to face losing her, so he babbles on about where to go next. But when she brings it up he knows the moment has come, and he gracefully accepts her decision to leave and thanks her for being awesome, even though he's hurting over being left alone again. He keeps his heartbreak to himself and focuses on telling her how great she is ("Martha Jones, you saved the world," which is a pretty huge acknowledgment!) And then she says she felt second best, but realizes she isn't, and he gives that chuckle of agreement. Because of course he doesn't think she's second best, and he's happy that she's realized it.

Then she comes back and gives her speech about unrequited love, and he doesn't say much because that's her big moment of self-realization. It's nothing to do with him (unless you buy into the whole "he's morally obligated to fall in love with her" argument); it's about her resolving her crush and moving on.

It's so patently obvious that he doesn't think she's second best in any kind of personal way. The only way he thinks she's second best is in a romantic sense, which, well, she is, through no fault of her own or any fault of his, just because sometimes romance doesn't work out.

As far as Ten being unresponsive... Ten is so emotionally unresponsive. It's one of his defining traits; that he can't stand facing difficult emotional situations. He runs away not because he doesn't care, but because he cares so much that he can't deal with the pain. He can't bring himself to say goodbye to Sarah Jane, to go back and deal with Jack, to talk about Gallifrey. He's constantly claiming he's all right when he isn't (GitF, 42). For all the complaints about how emo he is, Ten's method of dealing with emotional trauma is Repress Repress Repress. (Part of the greatness of "Doomsday" is that he finally gets over this enough to say goodbye, but it's too little too late in that his time runs out before he manages to tell Rose he loves her.)

It's as though somehow, at the worst moments, dramatically, her feelings are less real than his. That's practically the definition of absent respect. It's not just Martha who gets this, either; the end of LotTL is very similar to the end of GitF, where there's just as little follow-through

I really don't see this. In both GitF and LotTL, we see the events through the companion's POV. Of course we know that they're hurting. And the Doctor doesn't talk to them about it, because that's how he is; he runs rather than deal with emotional situations. But it's not like he's pouring out his pain to them either; he hides from his own pain too, puts on a happy face, and tries to move forward without dealing.

He abandons Rose and Mickey on a ship full of killer androids with no expectation of being able to get back to them—yet nobody mentions to him that this was fairly astonishing, ever.

The killer androids had been stopped. It was a life or death situation, and he choose the immediate life-saving action. It's not like he wanted to leave Rose and Mickey; as much as he liked Reinette he was immediately angsting about being stuck in the past. And he was looking out into the stars planning to get back to Rose and Mickey the very slow way, and immediately leaped at the chance to get back to them.

[continued below]

[elliptic-eye.livejournal.com]

He runs away not because he doesn't care, but because he cares so much that he can't deal with the pain.

Running is a response. Four's complete inability to reply to Leela at the end of Invasion of Time is a prime example. At the end of LotTL and GitF, I just didn't see a response.

As you say, we clearly got different reads on issues that may come down to actors' delivery, which is always going to remain subjective.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

. But because it's never given any other exploration, it falls flat; unlike Nine's inability to use the delta wave in PotW, it was actively boring.

I've heard the end of FoB called a lot of things, but never boring before! ;) I don't understand what you mean by "other exploration"; it was, itself, an exploration of Ten's character. It's part of a continuing exploration of his character that's been going on throughout the series. It doesn't have an easy answer; it taps into huge philosophical debates about the nature of power and vengeance that can't and shouldn't be resolved simply.

He leaves Jack behind for… reasons that can't have been too compelling, because he's over it at the end of LotTL despite that Jack hasn't changed any, and we never get any explanation.

But we do get an explanation, in "Utopia." The Doctor admits that he ran away because he didn't want to deal with Jack being "wrong," Jack talks about prejudice, the Doctor doesn't disagree, and they bond again and get over it. It's a great moment because the Doctor actually does learn something there, and we do see how other characters deal with his tendency to run away rather than face anything emotionally challenging.

But why does nobody have anything to say about it?

But why do the characters have to say anything? The audience is smart enough to think for ourselves. Are we really supposed to see it as 100% unproblematic that the Doctor forgives and cries over the man who gleefully tried to destroy humanity? Of course not. We're supposed to think about it and come to our own conclusions. It has multiple layers and interpretations, and the characters don't have to spell them all out for the audience to appreciate them.

I love that moment because it's simultaneously so illustrating of the Doctor's goodness, his ability to forgive (don't forget that he was held hostage for a year, too), and of his deep deep deep screwed up personal issues (he's so desperately lonely that he clings to a monster as long as he's of his own kind). It's another lovely example of the show's willingness to allow moral ambiguity, and leave the ultimate meaning up to the audience.

[jaydk.livejournal.com]

He trusts her to defeat his arch-nemesis in a year-long propaganda war carried out in hell on earth, but he's unwilling to acknowledge that he doesn't, in fact, think she's second-rate.

Martha says that she spent a long time thinking she was second-rate -- not that the Doctor ever thought that. Thinking she's second-rate is Martha's issue, not the Doctor's -- because, after all, he trusts her to carry out the plan to defeat the Master, and that's just one of several times he shows her trust and respect. I read that scene as Martha's final realization that she's not second-best -- the Doctor doesn't need to realize that because the Doctor never thought that. He's not the cause of Martha feeling that way -- it's her unrequited crush.

He condemns the Family to a series of eternal tortures, which certainly is playing God, because the universe isn't safe with them alive and he doesn't have the stones to execute them.

I totally read that scene differently. Considering we've seen Ten actively destroy or set up the destruction of antagonists ranging from the leader of the Sycorax to the Cybermen, the Daleks, the wire, the Beast, the Racnoss and her children, the plasmavore, the Carrionites, etc., I don't think Ten lacks the ability to kill if necessary. The Doctor could have easily allowed the Family's ship to blow up without giving them the warning to run, similar to the fate of the bad guys in School Reunion. I think he gives them that warning because he thinks death is too easy on the Family, considering they're going to die inevitably in three months or less anyway. I think the Doctor wants them to survive so he can punish them the way he thinks they truly deserve. This Doctor can be pretty damn dark.

[jerrymcl89.livejournal.com]

The only real unbreakable rule I have about flawed characters is this - I need to know that the writers realize they are flawed. Which I think the "Dr. Who" writers generally do. I sometimes wonder about "Torchwood", though.

[elliptic-eye.livejournal.com]

The only real unbreakable rule I have about flawed characters is this - I need to know that the writers realize they are flawed.

Agreed, with the caveat that I need to know from what makes it on the screen—I'm not really interested in all the Confidential stuff, and the show should speak for itself. Who does this some of the time for me, but falls through on it at the weirdest moments (GitF, LotTL, FoB, etc.).

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

It seems like what you're asking is that whenever the Doctor does something morally questionable, some other character has to actually speak up within the show and say "Doctor, you are wrong." What they're doing is far more complex because they leave it to the viewers to decide.

What the Doctor did to Harriet Jones and to the FoB *is* dark, and it's up to you to decide whether he was right. It's even possible to conclude that there's no "right" answer in those situations, just a bunch of difficult and questionable options no matter what you choose.

I don't need the show to shove its moral answers down my throat; I want it to ask interesting questions and leave them for me to think about. I think Doctor Who does an impressive job at this, especially for a supposed childrens' show.

[elliptic-eye.livejournal.com]

It seems like what you're asking is that whenever the Doctor does something morally questionable, some other character has to actually speak up within the show and say "Doctor, you are wrong."

No, that isn't what I want, though I can see how it looked that way. I want the people around the Doctor to act like people. Most of the time, they do. That doesn't mean other characters calling him an arse and giving him an itemized explanation of why, but it does mean that things he does should some effect on his dynamics with other people, and vice versa. Yet sometimes he does frankly bizarre stuff that just doesn't seem to register. Moments like that make the morality look more black-and-white, not less.

What they're doing is far more complex because they leave it to the viewers to decide.

Sometimes (Nine and the delta wave). Other times, I'm not so bowled over by the complexity (Daleks versus Cybermen. Behold, the seriousness of modern television, which the frivolity of past decades can never touch). Still other times, something that was almost worth thinking about after we've switched off the TV set gets a dimension leached out of it because it's as if it never happened (Ten leaves his teenaged companions on a spaceship of killer robots without any expectation of getting back to them, but this apparently has no ramifications for his relationship with Rose). And then there are the times when the show coasts on superficial imagery that flattens the situation's dynamics instead of allowing things free play (LotTL is blatantly set up in the mold of Brothers K, but it isn't Brothers K. It just isn't).

A situation becomes complex when they allow what characters do to complicate things.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

she knew full well that he had lost someone very close to him. That didn't stop her from following him around making eyes at him and then getting all upset when he didn't return her affections.

Yes. Exactly. She went into this situation knowing that he was in mourning, and just expected him to get over it instantly and fall for her. And when he didn't, she resented him for it. People don't work that way--you can't just snap your fingers and recover from a loss, and human beings are not interchangeable. It doesn't matter how awesome Martha was (and the show took great pains to shove down our throats how COMPLETELY PERFECT she is). She's not Rose and at that point it just wasn't going to happen.

The thing that gets me is, yes, of course it's disappointing to love someone who doesn't love you, but still. ALL OF TIME AND SPACE. She's got ALL OF TIME AND SPACE and all she can do is whine that the alien she's traveling with won't sleep with her. I don't care how painful it is be around an unrequited crush; you'd have had to pry that TARDIS from my cold dead fingers.

I just don't understand the venom towards Rose by the Martha fans. It makes no sense to me.

It makes sense to me. They know perfectly well that their ship is nothing compared to Rose and the Doctor. It's venom borne of shipper bitterness, nothing more.

Sorry if I'm overly ranty toward Martha in this. I didn't put it in the post because I know it's subjective, but I just can't stand her. I think the actress is completely flat and the character is entirely one-dimensional. She's more of a Mary Sue than Rose ever was; her only human flaw is a crush. Otherwise the show takes constant pains to constantly prove that she's perfect, which does not make an interesting character.

[stoplookingup.livejournal.com]

Sorry if I'm overly ranty toward Martha in this. I didn't put it in the post because I know it's subjective, but I just can't stand her.

No, really?

[honeymink]

it's just he didn't see past his own pain to even consider that Martha was in love with him.

While I generally agree with you, I don't think this is totally right. I think, at some point he realised that Martha had thing for him, but decided to ignore it. Probably because he hoped it'd straighten itself out and because he was desperate not to be alone, without a friend/companion.

The whole thing was just unfortunate but it happens all the time. People being hopeful or better said delusional that another person's feelings towards them will change in a way that is favourable to them and therefore sticking with something longer than is healthy.

It's just one of those things...

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

I've been formally involved in DW fandom since 1988. *wibble*

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

You are my Yoda, man.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Hee! I'm in awe that you've survived so long.

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

Welcome to DW fandom! Arguing over canon for more than 40 years! Seriously, listening to some of the old timers talk, New School are just babies in the way of fandom wars. But in the grand tradition of engaging debate, I dive in...

No, I don't think the Doctor was horribly mean to Harriet Jones. I do think he was irresponsible. While he doesn't think he is a god, he does believe himself to be a higher authority (as he states in New Earth) and he does not like being crossed when it comes to the big stuff. Whether Harriet Jones had a right to shoot the Sycorax out of the sky is debatable, but the Doctor who has preached against changing time lines again and again, took down "The Golden Age of Britain" because he didn't like her actions. That was a deliberate decision on his part which had consequences, one of which there was a power vaccuum that was taken advantage of by The Master. Would the Master still have wreaked havoc and tried to destroy the world? Hell, yeah. But, just as the events of "Bad Wolf" are a consequence of "The Long Game" and, yes, to an extent "Doomsday" is a result of "Tooth & Claw", the Master's ascension to that particular place is a result of "The Christmas Invasion."

In fact, I think that's one thing that New Who *has* done exceptionally well: made the Doctor fallible and shown that there are consequences. Yes, he does a tremendous amount of good but everything has a cost. And while it isn't his job, as you say, to stick around and play clean-up, I'd think he'd have some sort of obligation to ensure that he didn't make things worse. There is, of course, the issue of free will but I think his actions in TCI come off as a bit arrogant, which totally fits in with his "I'm that kind of man" characterization.

As far as Rose deserving to be ripped into an alternate world because of their hubris? I agree with you. I don't think she deserved it. But on the flip side, T&C was the one episode where I thought Rose was extremely OOC. She has always been the Doctor's compassion, the heart where he was logic. Her inappropriate quips in front of the Queen, while Lady Isobel was standing right next to her were really in poor taste and jarring for the character. There was a woman whose husband had just sacrificed himself to save the three of them and Rose and the Doctor are making childish jokes? I'll never forgive the writers for that one because that's *not* the Rose I knew.

As for the Rose and Martha stuff - Yes. ITA. Any reasonable debate on their characterization has been lost in the fire of ship wars and there's no sense even trying. That road is long and bitter, my friend.

I think I can see the nuggets of where fandom is coming up with the assumptions that are making you nuts, but with most things fannish, there are some people who push it to the wall.

And since this isn't said in Who fandom nearly enough: YMMV. ;)

edited because "infallible" and "fallible" are really two entirely different concepts. ;)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

You know, it took me years of arguing in Buffy fandom to figure out that sometimes people just disagree, but that they can still be friends and that neither side is wrong or right. We all bring our own life experiences and see the show through our own perspectives, so of course our opinions differ.

I almost always see fandom through the eyes of one character, who I adore completely and of whom I can forgive anything. Anything s/he does wrong just makes me love him/her more. (For example: "Methos killed tens of thousands of people once? Awesome!")

I agree that the Doctor sees himself as a higher authority... I just think he's right. He *is* usually the most powerful person in the room. He's the smartest and he understands more than anyone else, and he has more ability to act and to change things than anyone else. I'm glad that he acts, even if he makes mistakes, because I think it's better to try to stop wrongdoing than to sit back and claim that it's not your place.

He changes time lines every time he acts, so I don't see how stopping Harriet Jones was different from any of the other wrongdoing that he regularly stops. It just looks different to us because she's human, but to him, everyone's an alien, and he stops wrongdoing regardless. (Of course, when it comes to his own species he's totally biased, but I love that too. Doctor/Master FTW.)

I'd think he'd have some sort of obligation to ensure that he didn't make things worse.

Has he ever really made things worse? (In the new series; I haven't seen the old.) As far as I can tell, even when he's left situations less than perfect, his presence stopped an even greater evil from occurring. And I just don't think it's his responsibility to pick up the pieces for everyone else; if he leaves and people screw up again, that's their fault.

I don't see Rose's behavior in T&C as inappropriate. Everyone would've died if she and the Doctor hadn't shown up and helped. She was a little irreverent, but that's part of what I love about her and the Doctor--that they genuinely enjoyed themselves, instead of pretty much every other show where characters are constantly suffering the Epic Burden of having awesome adventures and exciting lives. I certainly don't think it's anything they needed to be punished for.

But, yeah. Totally YMMV.

[scarlettgirl.livejournal.com]

You know, it took me years of arguing in Buffy fandom to figure out that sometimes people just disagree, but that they can still be friends and that neither side is wrong or right. We all bring our own life experiences and see the show through our own perspectives, so of course our opinions differ.

Absolutely. I still have the battle scars to remind me of that lesson. I love debating and discussing meta but I'm not going to change anyone's opinion and no one is going to change mine. And that's cool. Endless debates on "you're doing it wrong" are wearying and pointless. Agreeing to disagree is an art that too often is lost in fandom. (There is also the gentle art of knowing who on your flist you can say "What the hell are you smoking?" and laugh when they say "Bitch, please, it's the good stuff and you should get some." And those for whom fandom is Serious Business.)

Speaking of which, I'm probably responsible for bring the wankapocalypse to your lj (other than the fact you are smoking the crack *g*) I added you to the who_daily watchlist a while back because I enjoyed reading your "new fan" musings. If you want to avoid the spotlight I'd be happy to take you off.

(I'm also going to second the "State of Play" rec..I saw bits and pieces of it before Simm!Master and it rocked)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I haven't had a fandom in so long that I actually kind of forgot how much people can care about the text. For years now, "fandom" to me has just been the people I knew originally from BtVS, all drifting about and doing other things. It was entirely about the people, and the various fannish texts that came along were just... excuses for us to talk to each other, because we like each other.

So it is kind of startling to realize, oh yeah, there are people out there who will *hate* you for your opinion about fiction. I just kind of feel sorry for them, though, because fandom can't be any fun at all if you freak out anytime someone's opinion differs. Fandom is entirely *about* differing opinions.

I admit, I can understand where it comes from. When I first got here I took things *way* too seriously. Like "You're an Angel fan? Obviously you're crazy and I don't want to talk to you." Then, y'know, I went to conventions and met Angel fans who were awesome, and realized that your fannish preferences actually have very little relation to whether or not you'll get along in real life. And certainly your taste in fictional characters is not an accurate reflection of your real-life morality.

I don't mind being on the who_daily watchlist. I haven't gotten this much entertainment from my LJ in a long time. ;)

"State of Play"... okay, obviously I'm going to have to see this ASAP. The more John Simm in my life, the better.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

Some of the Martha fen give me Kittens flashbacks - and not in the fluffy ball of goodness sort of way - only this time the writing team aren't bending over for them, which gievn what happened last time can only be a good thing.

Re Harriet, I'm still totally convinced she paid for the Brig's Silurians go boom back in the Three era - something the Doctor really held a grudge and could only bitch about while he was exiled to Earth./Old Skooler

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Dude. The Kittens! That's totally it! Except I was actually way more sympathetic to the Kittens, because as much as they blew it insanely out of proportion, they did have a real issue underneath. Joss killed Tara pretty callously to get a reaction out of Willow with no regard for Tara's own story. And while I'm sure he didn't intend it, it fell into a discriminatory pattern that he really should've been aware of and more sensitive to. (Plus then he watered down the dark Willow arc anyway!)

In contrast, the Martha fans are throwing a bitch fit about nothing. Both the first and last episodes of the season were ALL ABOUT how awesome Martha was, with plenty of episodes in between highlighting her awesomeness. Her entire story arc was "starts out awesome, ends up EVEN MORE AWESOME." The ONLY THING her fans didn't get was their ship, and I think what's really offensive is them bringing up major real life issues and then using them to justify their side in a ship war.

[dalmeny]

I haven't yet seen The Silurians but I presume the Third must have felt demoralised and powerless at that point. He does seem to have forgiven UNIT and the Brig though. But it did occur to me as well that the Silurian genocide might have had something to do with his reaction.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I have no idea what you people are talking about. :P

[paratti.livejournal.com]

One of the most deeply morally complex stories the classic series ever did, which has both the humans and the sentient reptiles that were here first both trying to wipe each other out whilst some among them and the Doctor try to find detente, and ends with a character we the audience love doing something the Doctor calls murder. It's a great story and I'd recomomend it heartily.

Spoilers

[dalmeny]

I know you probably don't want to know either, but...

The Third Doctor was trapped on Earth for years as a punishment from the Time Lords. He wound up working for the UK branch of UNIT, the United Nations Intelligence Taskforce, an essentially military outfit that investigated weird stuff, mainly alien invasions.

In one story (OK, two), the Doctor and UNIT encounter the Silurians. The Silurians evolved on Earth many years ago but then went into hibernation. When a few awoke in the 20th century, they discovered their planet was over-run by us apes. [Cue variation on standard alien-invasion plot.] The Doctor intended to broker a peaceful agreement between Earth's two indigenous species, but UNIT commander Brigadier Lethbridge-Stuart blew up the hibernating Silurians. Doctor horrified but unable to stop it.

Despite this, the Doctor keeps working with UNIT and maintains his prickly friendship with the Brig, even after the Doctor manages to leave Earth. The Brig has worked with more incarnations of the Doctor than possibly any other human, including the Second, the Third, the Fourth, the Fifth and the Seventh. Sarah-Jane, who also knew him well, sends him best wishes in The Sarah-Jane Adeventures, so it's not impossible for him to meet a new incarnation even now.

Re: Spoilers

[dalmeny]

Sorry, it's Stewart, not Stuart.

Re: Spoilers

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Interesting! One day I will probably have to catch up with some of these old episodes....

[mary5958.livejournal.com]

*loves you*

:-)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Awww, I've missed you, Mary! The photomanips you've been posting in your journal recently are really pretty, btw.

[mary5958.livejournal.com]

Miss you, too!

What's up with WriterCon, anyway? Are they planning one for this summer? (Thought you might have some inside info, since you did the website last time.) If so, I hope it's something I can get to and that I'll have a chance to see you there again. :-)

Glad you like the manips. I find it really relaxing and I tell myself I'm learning a new skill. *snort*

*hugs*

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

It's... the last thing I knew was happening was two of the concom investigating hotels. They were having a lot of trouble finding a place with enough space that's also affordable, and the thinking was that it may have to be pushed back to 2009, but that decision hasn't been made yet. So I don't really know anything until they update us with how the hotel search is going, but it hasn't been forgotten.

[mary5958.livejournal.com]

I'd be bummed if it got delayed a year, but could deal as long as it continues to happen. Do you have any idea what cities they were looking at?

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I don't think we're supposed to say at this point, because it's all still so up in the air and we don't want anyone getting their hopes up and then being disappointed. There's some discussion of it over at writercon; as soon as anything's decided it'll be posted there.

I know how you feel, though. I *so* love Writercon, and I'm really sad that it's seeming less and less likely to happen this year. :(

[mary5958.livejournal.com]

:-(

This doesn't sound promising. I'm so bummed - it's the only con I go to.

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Word, is the word! I am behind you completely in your rant-a-thon. thisficklemob sent me to you because she's heard almost all of this before from me. Then, she told me who you were...and I decided I needed to say, Hello! I don't know if you remember me...but I did have some Spuffy fic up at All About Spike. And I'm one of the Old School Who fans for the Doctor and Rose.

I was actually a bit appalled when I discovered the online DW fandom because...WHOA! There were bunch of serious loons in it. I mean, there are in every fandom...I am not saying I'm loon immune in any case...I can go off in my own right into loon territory. But I've got as much invested in the Doctor as anybody. I watched the show from the very beginning on American television...so since the 1970s...and find that New Who gives me exactly the same man...with a little more life experience under his belt...in a more perilous position. He's still lovable and fantastic and his loving Rose did nothing but give him extra dimension as a character.

Rae
ranting her own self...sorry! Oh...and I should pimp my Doctor/Rose fic...in case you do remember me from All About Spike and wanted to see what I was doing with this fandom.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

It's good to hear from an old school fan who approves of New Who! I think a lot of times fans get set in their ways and react with negativity when anything changes, but with a fandom this old of course things are going to change. You have to evolve with the times. There are so many wonderful things about the new series that it makes me sad how many supposed fans refuse to appreciate it.

Yep, I totally remember you from the Spike days! I still have you on my FL, actually, I just hardly ever comment. It's really cool that you're writing fic in this fandom too.

I really enjoyed the Doctor/Rose relationship in canon; Billie Piper had great chemistry with both actors, and she's an excellent actress. I really loved their whole "traveling around having adventures" thing; they didn't get bogged down in any of that silly "why can't we settle down and be normal" angst that so often afflicts such ships. I love that Rose chose to stay with the Doctor even though it meant losing her family, and that he accepted it, and it was fate--rather than their decisions--that tore them apart. (Such a nice contrast to Buffy's "I want to be normal!" and Angel's "This decision is final and I'm making it for your own good.")

I'm not really a shipper, though, and I don't get into Doctor/Rose in fanfic. I'm pretty exclusively into slash these days, and the only ship I've gotten into is Doctor/Master. >:)

[mary5958.livejournal.com]

I remember you from All About Spike, too.

LOL.

*hugs*

[rabid1st.livejournal.com]

Hugs to you, birthday girl. I was just gearing myself up to send you a virtual flower or something. Just a haunting voice from the past reminding you that you are old. No need to thank me, yet. :grin:

Yes...some people appear to remember me from the old writings. I still get the periodic plea for Ichnobate to be finished. Did you ever return to Journeys? The one thing about Doctor/Rose so far...it has not had the deathblow dealt it that so many other ships get and I even have hope that this one might go out with a happy.

Rae
hoping you and yours are all fine and bundled up against the raging cold that seems to have gripped the midwest.

[mary5958.livejournal.com]

Yes, I am old. It is a sad state of affairs that was strongly brought home to me when I was at DisneyWorld early in December. I got danged tired. But I still thought Rockin' RollerCoaster and Tower of Terror were the best rides, so perhaps there is some life left in me. *snort*

Apparently, I am unable to write. Seriously. This looooong inability to put pen to paper is one of the great sadnesses of my life and I hope it will go away very soon. I'm so glad you're still writing - and vidding, too!

My family is well and we were together for Christmas this year for the first time in 4 years. I have 3 grandkids now and a 4th on the way! I am loving it.

So wonderful to touch base with you, Rae. Laura, thanks for letting us catch up on your journal! :-)

[jaydk.livejournal.com]

You. Are. The. Best! Awesome, delightfully coherent rant.

A few comments:

1) I like Harriet Jones, but the Sycorax were retreating, and that makes what she did murder. Sympathetic characters can commit terrible acts -- what Harriet did isn't right just because we like her. I think the Doctor had as much right to take her down as he did to defend the Earth from the Sycorax in the first place -- which is actually, none at all when you think about it. The Doctor does what he does not because he has the right, but because it's the right thing to do. And I love the reminder that as much as the Doctor loves humanity, he's not going to turn a blind eye to the murder of another species that was no longer in conflict with Earth. Go Ten, says I.

2) I have never understood why the Doctor and Rose are perceived as so freakin' awful for enjoying their adventures through time and space. That's one of the reasons I love them -- because they do enjoy themselves so much together. And while Rose's joke was a little stupid in Tooth & Claw, I certainly don't think some irreverence meant she "deserved" to have her heart broken. Torchwood's imperialist greed had far more direct responsibility for Rose being trapped in Pete's World, especially since it happened because she and the Doctor were in the process of saving the world from Torchwood's near-destruction of it. The people who make the actual decision to punch a hole through dimensions out of greed have more responsibility than the people who made a bad joke nearly 150 years ago. Crazy idea, eh?

3) The Doctor actually doesn't bring Rose up in Gridlock -- Martha references her. The Doctor brings up Rose himself all of twice in series three, in just the first two episodes, and yet somehow, this is perceived to be "constant" and that the Doctor is somehow stuck on Rose. Honestly, I think the Doctor will always miss Rose, but he's pretty much gotten over the worst of the grief by the mid-point of the series at the latest. Much as I loathe that Dalek two-parter, I think encountering the Daleks again and trying to help them change is actually healing for him in terms of all he's lost thanks to the Daleks (at least until the Master brings the pain of Gallifrey back again). I think it's notable that it's after this encounter that the Doctor gives up the "just one trip" bit with Martha and makes her a full-fledged companion. The Doctor is able to move on, IMO...

4)...but the problem I guess is that the Doctor never moves on to Martha romantically. So therefore, all of his hugs and his thanks and his trusting Martha to take care of human him in 1913 and having faith in Martha to spread the story that would save the world -- none of that matters, because the Doctor doesn't return Martha's romantic feelings and somehow, the only way one can appreciate someone is to fall in love with them. That argument is just totally ridiculous to me -- you have to actively ignore what happens on-screen to make it. Like the Doctor saying thank you a lot!

5) The usual situation is people are dying, the Doctor shows up, he and his companions help save the day, and people stop dying. Not everything the Doctor does is right, but what about the responsibility of the people in the situation to make the right choices? Don't they have at least as much responsibility for what happens next, if not more? If the Doctor helps clean up your mess, why is it his job to keep you from making another one -- isn't that your job?

6) Which goes to the final point -- the Doctor isn't a god, and he knows it. He does his best, but he still loses. The courage of the Doctor is he keeps trying. I don't see how the better alternative would be for the Doctor to believe he can't make a difference when he can, or not act rather than act to save lives. The Doctor makes changes in history every time he saves someone or cures someone or stops someone -- and with his level of knowledge, even choosing not to act is a choice that will affect others. I think the Doctor acts not because he thinks he's a god, but because he thinks he's right -- and most of the time, he is.

Ahh, that was fun -- although mostly just repeating your well-stated points. But still fun! ;-)

[jaydk.livejournal.com]

Just reading my own comment, and wow, what a nutty Doctor fan I am! Of the character, I mean. I do think he's flawed and he does make bad choices, but honestly, I think his number of good choices is way way higher, and he seems to get very little credit for that in fandom. So I give him lots ;-). I guess that's the danger of saving humanity and inspiring others to become heroes time and time again...it's just taken for granted.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Hee. Even when we're not hanging out talking about Doctor Who... we're hanging out talking about Doctor Who.

You totally owe me an anti-Martha rant now. I hear bits of it every weekend; just write it all up in your LJ! ;)

The Doctor actually doesn't bring Rose up in Gridlock -- Martha references her.

Dammit, I knew I was going to get that wrong! I actually almost asked you about it on the phone, but I didn't want my boss to hear. Is there a transcript site out there somewhere? I need to be able to fact-check these things. :P

[jaydk.livejournal.com]

Yeah, we're totally sad. But I'm enjoying it ;-).

I know, I know on the Martha thing. You're so determined to get me in the thick of it.

I know how many times the Doctor brings up Rose in series 3 because I've gotten into the "The Doctor doesn't appreciate Martha!" argument at least 2 or 3 times on Outpost Gallifrey. It goes something like this:

"The Doctor is responsible for Martha's poor self-esteem -- he's always talking about Rose!"
"The Doctor only brings up Rose twice, in the first two episodes of the series."
"The Doctor constantly brings up Rose! Poor Martha!"
"He doesn't reference Rose after the second episode!"
"But he's always talking about Rose! Why can't he appreciate Martha!"
"The Doctor thanks Martha, he hugs her, he trusts her..."
"Why oh why does he treat Martha so badly! Martha ftw!"

I exaggerate, but not by much. My favorite argument there was that the Doctor must be putting Martha down OFF-SCREEN, thus invalidating any on-screen appreciation, because otherwise why would Martha feel second-best? It couldn't possibly have anything to do with, say, an unrequited crush....? No, that could never make someone feel second-best, it's gotta be the Doctor's fault, that jerk.

Second-hand forum arguments -- fascinating, I know! ;-)

[04nbod.livejournal.com]

'the doctor isn't the intergalactic space whore i want him to be, waaa!'

you aren't exaggerating at all! (I on the other hand...:p)

and I totally agree with everything the OP says.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Oooh, your icon is pretty.

[salienne.livejournal.com]

Is there a transcript site out there somewhere? I need to be able to fact-check these things.

There's one right here: http://who-transcripts.atspace.com/

Most of S3 isn't up yet (and neither is TC or VotD), but they have got quite a lot. :D

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Much appreciated.

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes. You've just highlighted all the reasons why, though I love the show, I'm not in the fandom. Yikes. And the Doctor can be an arrogant bastard, but that's one of the reasons why I love him.

and Britain would be ruled by werewolves.

I want to see that episode!

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

And the Doctor can be an arrogant bastard, but that's one of the reasons why I love him.

Yeah, I guess my reaction whenever the Doctor does something questionable is "Ooh, awesome! Moral ambiguity!" Whereas it seems like fandom is like "Boo hiss! How dare he not be PERFECT!?" Perfect characters are boring.

Plus, compared to the characters I've loved in the past (mass murdering vampire, mass murdering immortal...) the Doctor is positively a White Hat. ('Course I also love the Master... mass murdering Time Lord....)

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

You so need to watch Dexter.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I keep hearing that! It's definitely on my list of shows to catch up with.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

It is awesomely good.

[dalmeny]

The Doctor brought up Rose constantly throughout season three.

In comparison to how often he's mentioned other past companions, he really did. In comparison to any human who's lost a dear friend, he was a model stoic.

I'm Old Skool enough to still loathe the idea of Doctor/Companion, regardless of the companion.

My two pet hates of Dr Who fandom memes are:

(i) Madame de Pompadour would have been just an ordinary woman as a companion. How many other middle class women managed to become serious political players in 18th century Europe? She deliberately sought power and she was good at obtaining it. And the Dr Who version was really frightening in how she took s much in her stride. MdP would never be an ordinary woman.

(ii) The Doctor could accidentally father a child. The Time Lords had all that technology and yet somehow never developed decent contraception? Given their long life spans and tailored physiology, I'd be surprised if they didn't have to consciously want a kid before their repro systems swithced on...

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

The old show really just doesn't have much appeal to me. I've tried watching it, but I think television has evolved immensely since then, and writers these days are far more likely to take risks and to tell more complex stories with more three-dimensional characters. I have a hard time seeing the old show as anything but a less-evolved version of the new one. I know this is blasphemy to a big part of the fandom, but, whatever. I like what I like.

If the Doctor hadn't mentioned Rose after she'd left, it would've cheapened the story they'd told for the previous two seasons, which was all about how Rose helped him come out of his shell and enjoy life again after the trauma of the Time War. It would be a far less interesting and meaningful show if they ignored important relationships that came before.

Madame de Pompadour would have been just an ordinary woman as a companion.

Where is that from? Fanfic? I haven't seen it, but yeah. Madame de Pompadour was amazing. I adored her, because she was brilliant and charming and very dark and ruthless, just like the Doctor. I loved that episode because it's really rare to see such a well-drawn, three-dimensional female character, especially in a one-episode role.

The Doctor could accidentally father a child.

Gaaaah. See, I haven't seen this, because I'd rather gouge my own eyes out than read babyfic. I think part of the reason I avoid het entirely is because this way there is no risk of babies coming along and invading my imagination.

[dalmeny]

The old show is difficult to watch. I've been watching them on DVD (I saw some as a kid, but others were before my time). Even undoubted classics like Genesis of the Daleks are poorly-paced and involve far too much padding. There are some outstanding single episodes which are let down by the rest of the story: the first episode of The Hand of Fear, and the first few of The Dalek Invasion of Earth, for example. My personal favourite is The Talons of Weng-Chiang, a proto-steampunk story with the Fourth Doctor and Leela, but it is justifiably criticised for its one-sided portrayal of most of its Chinese characters. It's also the story that first mentions Time Agents from the 51st Century, although none appear.

I think part of the reason I avoid het entirely is because this way there is no risk of babies coming along and invading my imagination.

As I've convinced myself that the Time Lords engineered their own genomes, I think of Doctor Who fanfic as one place where mpreg might actually make sense, particularly as the Doctor and the Master are the last of their species. Still doesn't mean I want to read any sort of babyfic...

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Hee. I did actually read a Doctor/Master babyfic, but it was an ultra dark story by versaphile, so I forgave it. (And even there, it took me a month to work up the nerve to read it.)

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

Totally agree - I can't believe anyone is putting these arguments forward - why are they watching?

Harriet Jones deserved far worse than she got, but because he's the Doctor, he didn't give it to her.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's really interesting how divergent opinions are about Harriet Jones. I like her a lot, but I also think what she did was wrong, and that the Doctor stopping her is no different from any of the other "stopping wrongdoing" that he always does.

But I see everything from "Harriet Jones is the Antichrist!" to "The Tenth Doctor is a monster for being so mean to her!" At least it leads to interesting discussions, as long as people don't get too wanky.

random who comments

[circe-tigana.livejournal.com]

As far as I can tell, the show is nearly completely separate from the wank. The wank is wanton, and came into being before many elements were even introduced. People hated Rose&Doctor from the start because it wasn't Doctor&Companion. People hated Martha from the first press release annoucing her because she wasn't Rose. People hated Seaon 2 from the start because it wasn't Season 1. The show didn't actually have to do anything; and in many cases, it literally didn't.

So yeah. I tend to see a lot of the stuff you're ranting about as completely divorced from the reality of watching the show. It's fandom, as you pointed out, not Doctor Who.

Having said all that, I feel good about my intense dislike of Torchwood. I feel like I came about it honestly because I found the writing to be lazy, boring and offensive and I found the character of Jack and the acting work of Barrowman to work only as sidekick not as leading man. Now that's honest dislike based on personal opinion ;)

Having said ALL of that, gosh I miss Nine's season. Aside from Gridlock and Blink I could happily leave all of Season 3 and content myself with watching Tennant and Simm show up everywhere together in London and on the BBC.

Re: random who comments

[bubonicplague.livejournal.com]

Having said ALL of that, gosh I miss Nine's season. Aside from Gridlock and Blink I could happily leave all of Season 3 and content myself with watching Tennant and Simm show up everywhere together in London and on the BBC.

Major word to this.

Re: random who comments

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I feel good about my intense dislike of Torchwood. I feel like I came about it honestly because I found the writing to be lazy, boring and offensive and I found the character of Jack and the acting work of Barrowman to work only as sidekick not as leading man.

YES. You've summed up exactly how I feel about Torchwood. I love DW so of course I approached Torchwood expecting to like it. It totally earned my dislike, by being awful in too many ways to count.

I didn't enjoy Nine nearly as much as Ten, but I am totally with you on Tennant and Simm. Mmm... happy thoughts.

Re: random who comments

[circe-tigana.livejournal.com]

I watched the first half of the first season and found the show to be offensively anti-women. So I stopped watching it and have absolutely no desire to go back. I see squee that focuses on the daringness of the sexuality, and that's cool, whatev, but it doesn't feel that daring for England first of all (it's just camp, and camp is fairly standard), and secondly it's not daring at all in terms of gender issues, it's just another crime show taking the easy way out in terms of cheap plot tricks with dead girls.

But yeah. Can't quite articulate it more eloquently than that, but that's my Torchwood dislike. I know a lot of people disagree, but I'll leave the show to them happily.

[bubonicplague.livejournal.com]

Not all of us Martha fans are shippers, though some of them sure make us look like that's the case. Yes, I think that Ten treated Martha pretty callously, but I also think Ten treated Rose pretty callously. (And what he did to Jack was beyond callous.) That's part of the characterization for this incarnation. Five, for instance, would never have sought out twisted vengeance on the Family.

Personally, I do not get why Who fans feel the need to get so fucking bitter. Wait around a bit and there will be a new incarnation, assholes. I don't like Ten - in fact, I loathe him, but it's just another aspect of the character and I can still enjoy the show.

Hee, and what is this whole concept that the Doctor needs to obey some ST:TNG version of the Prime Directive at all? A non-interference policy never has been part of this show; actually quite the opposite.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I guess I tend to approach fandoms through the perspective of a single character. I saw BtVS through Spike's POV, and I see DW through the Tenth Doctor's. So while I can see how he was thoughtless toward those other characters, I can't really bring myself to care. :P

I actually don't think he was ever particularly callous to Rose or Martha. He was thoughtless and oblivious sometimes, but so were they to him (like Rose dragging along a string of boyfriends in S1 or Martha completely dismissing that he was in mourning and resenting that he didn't immediately fall for her). And he did give them the opportunity to travel through time and space, which IMO pretty much makes up for the occasional bit of rude behavior. I also don't think Ten is any worse than Nine (I just re-watched the scene where Nine refuses to have tea with Rose and Jackie, and that was pretty damn rude.)

OTOH, I'll agree that he was callous toward Jack. But it makes sense to me emotionally; Ten always runs away from difficult emotional situations, as if by ignoring them he won't ever have to deal with them. It's not healthy, but it's understandable; it's one of those flaws that just makes me love him more. (Probably because it's an exaggerated version of something I tend to do, too.)

As for the Family, well, it's not like they didn't earn it. I'd agree that an ideal benevolent godlike figure wouldn't have taken such harsh revenge, but if the Doctor was perfect the show would be boring. What he did was in response to emotional devastation that they'd inflicted on him. I would have done the same thing if I had that kind of power; it's not "right" but to me it's sympathetic and understandable.

what is this whole concept that the Doctor needs to obey some ST:TNG version of the Prime Directive at all? A non-interference policy never has been part of this show; actually quite the opposite

Yeah, the show would be pretty boring if the Doctor never did anything!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_tweeter_/]

I'm just peeking into the fandom and was surprised at the vitriol spewed toward Rose. So I tiptoed back out. I just watch the shows and have fun doing so. I agree with everything you said, though.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

There's some really good fanfic out there, but the fannish discussions get scary!

And, yeah. I tend to get really frustrated with the predominance of poorly written female characters in so many fandoms, so I was really happy that Doctor Who had such a well-developed female lead in Rose. And then I come into fandom and everyone hates her. *eyeroll*

[salienne.livejournal.com]

...Thank you. Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou!

I am meming this. I am meming this like whoa.

It's nice to see sanity now and again.

So... thank you!

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'm glad you liked.

[garpu.livejournal.com]

Thank you for writing the rant I've wanted to write. It's nice for a change that when a character leaves, there's fallout (unlike when Adric died and there was 5 minutes in the episode after.)

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

Yeah, I think television has developed as a medium. In the past, a lot of shows had, like, emotional reset buttons, where something big and emotional would happen in one episode but would be forgotten in the next. It's a lot more common these days for events to have significant emotional ramifications into the future. I think it's a lot more emotionally honest for Rose's impact on the Doctor to be acknowledged after she'd left.

[scarfman]

I agree with some of your points and feel that others miss the respective issue.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

Brilliant, brilliant. You've put forward arguments that I totally agree with in all these cases, and yes, they do tend to be the predominent ones around the fandom, and yes, they do annoy me too.

One thing:
The Doctor brings death and destruction wherever he goes, and leaves disaster behind him for others to clean up.

As you said, untrue, bar Human Nature/Family of Blood. That is the only case I can think of otherwise. As Joan pointed out, if the Doctor hadn't choosen 1913, would all those people have died? That was one case of him bringing trouble with him, but I can't think of any others in the new series.

But yea, other than that, he doesn't create the problems - just shows up where the problems already exist.

Oh, and finally who can work with the Harriet Jones thing. I'm sick of defending the Doctor on that one, considering Harold Saxon was actually the MASTER, and if he wanted rid of Harriet Jones, he could have done it himself anyway. None of this "the Doctor actually bought her downfall which in turn lead to the Saxon's rise in power" - WHATEVER.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

if the Doctor hadn't choosen 1913, would all those people have died?

Yeah, but even there, I have a really hard time blaming the Doctor for the devastation inflicted by the Family. They are responsible for their own crimes. The Doctor ended up in 1913 out of compassion, because he was trying to avoid bloodshed. It's tragic that the Family didn't give up, and followed him to inflict more pain on others, but it's not his fault that they chose to act so violently.

I can hold him a bit responsible for not thoroughly thinking through the situation; his blase attitude did result in him leading a group of homicidal aliens to a vulnerable human population. But again, he was trying to act out of kindness, and if his plan had worked no one would have died. I really just can't blame him for what the Family did. It would've been far worse if he'd caused those deaths out of selfishness or cruelty, but I give him a pretty big pass since he was acting out of compassion.

I also think that Joan was being pretty damn unfair by blaming it on the Doctor. He's saved this world more times than she can imagine, and she really doesn't know the whole situation. I don't blame her for lashing out; she was suffering at the time, and could barely look in the eyes of the alien who'd taken away than man she loved. So she struck out and got him to go away, but I don't think we're meant to take her statement as Truth; it's coming from a very (understandably) biased POV.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

The Doctor himself, of his own volition, only brought her up twice.

THNAK YOU! There's even a joke icon I've seen about how the Doctor brought up Rose again to Martha and she's had enough of it, and I'm like seriously when? You cannot win those arguments though, several times now I've been told that the Doctor did in fact bring up Rose constantly, and one person kept insisting that the Gridlock reference came from the Doctor and why on earth would Martha bring up Rose, that's just silly. So I ended up rewatching the scene just to pull out the exact quotes, and then they stopped replying to me at all after that...


When people say this, what they mean is "The Doctor never fucked Martha."

:nods: The Doctor was constantly saying thank you, hugging Martha, making comments like "Martha Jones, you are a star". Again with this, I've had someone insist that the Doctor never said thank you in Family Of Blood *blinks and rewatches hug scene*

Martha's speech in that final scene was not about her feeling mistreated or underappreciated either, however fandom generally perceives it. It was about the comparison with her friend who kept waiting around for someone to fall in love with her, and Martha realising it was time to stop putting herself through that. Why on earth should the Doctor apologise for not falling in love, or for being attracted to blondes? Romantic love isn't about deserving that love because of how loyal you are, it's by and large a chemical response to another person. The Doctor did like Martha and care about her as a friend, but it wasn't like it was with Rose, and Martha finally accepted that it was just too hard to be around him when she was waiting on these secret hopes. There wasn't much the Doctor could say to that, and they both knew it. To expect the Doctor to kiss Martha's feet in that scene apologising, or to take offense if he ever kisses or holds a companions hand again, simply isn't fair. I've even seen CAPSLOCK anger about Astrid getting kisses twice, and Martha only getting the genetic transfer kiss, even though she was loyal to the Doctor for months. Er I didn't know people are obliged to kiss someone who is in love with them???

People seem to forget that the Doctor is a Time Lord, and has always behaved differently from us, when they want to pull out these moments of the Doctor not treating Martha with enough human sensitivity. Don't even get me started on "he'd never treat Rose like that" whines when it comes to stuff like the Doctor being thoughtless enough to invite Joan along, and how unappreciative that is of Martha. Did people actually watch GITF?

The other thing that's annoying me today: the fact that every time Doctor Who shows up on Fandom Wank, it turns into a big Rose-bashing extravaganza. It's just an excuse for a bunch of ugly grudgewank from bitter Martha fans

Totally. Both sides are as bad as each other frankly, but people want to put it all on the Rose fans which gets tiresome. It's strange because I've seen many Martha fans act exactly in the way that they once mocked Rose fans. A hugely O/T response to their favoured companion leaving, comments on how the Doctor isn't fit to lick her books and Martha pwns everyone by far, should be the next Doctor, have her own show. And it's like come on, did you not once make fun of Rose fans for being all about Rose and putting you off the character, did you not tell them the whole point of the show is that the next companion comes along in a minute? And the same people who hated the Doctor putting Rose on a pedestal and shouted Mary-Sue, then freak out when the Doctor fails to be swept off his feet by Martha.

But fandom wank really does seem obsessed with "batchippers". Even in the wank which featured people having frankly terrifying responses to the Rose spoiler news, talking of wanting to kill the writers in the most sadistic and disturbing detail, or yelling in all caps that RTD is a bigot that should get fucked up the ass with a rusty pole, still the most attention on the wank seemed to focus on Rose fans feeling vindicated and having a nah nah moment.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Dude. I just re-watched HN/FoB and he thanks Martha twice! Once in the instructional video and once at the end with a big hug. Not to mention the whole "trusting her with his life" thing implies that he had a lot of respect for her intelligence and resourcefulness... he just wasn't in love with her. That's it! The only "awful" thing he ever did was not fall in love!

I'm totally with you about the nature of romantic love. It's not something you can force or than anyone can *owe* to another person. Part of Martha's story was her growing to accept that romance with the Doctor just wasn't going to happen, and that she needed to move on. It's too bad her fans can't do the same.

Yeah, Fandom Wank seems to be dominated by a few really vocal and bitter Martha fans. I'm sure both sides do wanky things, but it's just annoying how they only mock the Rose side, and then do wanky things themselves in the FW comments. It's like you'd need Fandom Wank-Wank to mock them. It's too bad because 99% of the time I love FW.

When I first watched the series, I really didn't feel that strongly about Rose and Martha. I though Piper is a more compelling actress and that Rose was a more developed character, but I honestly didn't care much either way. Then I came into fandom and for the first time I understand the whole "the fans made me hate the character!" thing. Every time I see Martha fans making these nasty wanky arguments, I resent the character a little bit more.

[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

Here from who_daily and I just want to say that I love this and I totally agree.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'm glad you liked it.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

When people say this, what they mean is "The Doctor never fucked Martha." Which is a ship-war argument and is completely immune to logic.

I will now have a fair amount of sex with you.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Haha, thanks.

[fahrbotdrusilla]

The Doctor brought up Rose constantly throughout season three.

The Doctor brought her up twice as you said, but his distance from Martha fed into *her* belief that she was on his mind constantly. Which led to all of the other times Rose was mentioned. And even that was over done if you take old skool who into consideration.

When people say this, what they mean is "The Doctor never fucked Martha." Which is a ship-war argument and is completely immune to logic.

Well, no. He never 'fucked' Rose either.

The Doctor really thinks he's a god, his behavior is unacceptably arrogant, and he needs to be brought down.

I don't think Ten thinks he's god (I don't think Nine, Ten or the Doctor in general would *want* to be seen as a god), but I do think RTD is writing him that way. There was even a recent interview where he said the Doctor was A Proper Saviour and could be the second coming.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

And even that was over done if you take old skool who into consideration.

Yep. Which is why I sure am glad that television has evolved and we have nice things like emotional continuity now. ;)

[fahrbotdrusilla]

I *hate* when people use 'emotional continuity!!!' about that. It just makes the Doctor look like a bigger prick when it comes to Jack, Mickey, ect.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Yes, because clearly his relationships with Mickey and Jack, two casual friends who traveled briefly with him, were just as profoundly important to him as his relationship with Rose, a woman he traveled with for two years and who was the first person to bring him out of his shell since the Time War.

[fahrbotdrusilla]

Rose was dating Mickey for who knows how long. Never bringing him up again made them both look bad. The Doctor LIED about what happened to Jack.

[stoplookingup.livejournal.com]

Yup. That was all rant.

[thehornedgod.livejournal.com]

Heh. This is a marvellous rant full of truth.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Thanks!